A blog dedicated to the New York Mets with some other baseball thrown in.

Monday, October 01, 2007

Message From the Mets

New York Mets Dear Mets Fan:

All of us at the Mets are bitterly disappointed in failing to achieve our collective goal of building upon last year's success. We did not meet our organization's expectations -- or yours. Everyone at Shea feels the same range of emotions as you -- our loyal fans -- and we know we have let you down. We wanted to thank you for your record-breaking support of our team this year.

Equally important, Ownership will continue its commitment in providing the resources necessary to field a championship team. Omar will be meeting with Ownership shortly to present his plan on addressing our shortcomings so that we can achieve our goal of winning championships in 2008 and beyond.

You deserve better results.

Many thanks again for your record-breaking support.


What a nice little gift from the Mets. I certainly hope this team entertains getting a new manager in here. Please do not get me wrong. Everyone is on notice and it truly took an organizational effort to do something this colossally bad, but this Met team does not need to overhaul things. They do need to tweak things though. Really, they have a guy at the helm is not respected enough to make one decision in regards to his coaching staff. Is there any other team who has a manager with so little control? To me, that speaks volumes to how much they actually trust and respect the guy.

Also, the players lackadaisical play down the stretch is a direct reflection of Willie and the way he runs his team. His calming demeanor that everyone loved backfired if you ask me. This team needed someone with fire to get them motivated because they clearly needed help in that department. They needed someone to light a fire under their asses because all we have been hearing about is how lately is this team had taken everything for granted. They need someone like Valentine who knows the X's and O's of the game and had some fire, but someone not quite as grating. Too many people were rubbed the wrong way by him which was his problem.

On top of that, this team needs someone that is more trusting of young guys like Valentine did who seemingly got the best from young players. The Mets need to get younger and simply cannot get younger with people in this organization that shuns youth. Willie likes his vets that 'know how to play the game'. That is all well and fine, but he can go somewhere else and do that. I would also bet that if he gets fired, we will not see him managing for a long time. If you want to look at wins alone, you can certainly say he was successful. However, if you watch the games, the only thing you can do is speak well about his demeanor because it certainly will not be because of his strategy and I think we can all agree that strategy is a major part of managing.

I received a lot of complaints for getting on Willie about seemingly innocuous moves. However, the old axiom that every game counts could not be ringing truer. Whether it is wasted starts on Brian Lawrence, too many times going to Mota, inexplicably leaving Burgos in to face Howard earlier in the year, not using Gotay enough off the bench, calling Franco's number one too many times, leaving Green in the starting lineup for way too long, not having a handle on when you starting pitchers are done, putting in Paulie Ballgame to pinch hit with the bases loaded when the Mets direly needed an extra base hit, not using important September games more to explore your organization for pieces that might be able to chip in, etc.....

He is a good guy, but he is not right for this club. I have been saying that from day one and I am still saying it now. Not everyone can manage a big league ballclub and simply playing for twenty years does not qualify you to do so. The Mets took a flyer on a guy who has never managed before and it honestly has not worked out. You look at this team and the talent and you have to have an overall sense of disappointment. He lost control of this team and does not have a good handle on how to navigate through a game strategy wise. Add that up and the answer is obvious. By no means am I suggesting he is the only problem here, but he is a large part of the equation and one that is rather easily fixed. Yes, they have to eat some salary, but they can more than make up for it with a strong rebound in 2008.

Labels:

47 Comments:

Anonymous tc said...

The label says it all. Where's Oberkfell?!

6:25 PM

 
Anonymous brian b said...

can i have lindstrom and owens back?

8:07 PM

 
Anonymous Mike from Brooklyn said...

Mike:

First I want to say thanks for an excellent year of info/insights/honesty. I greatly enjoy coming here to celebrate/commiserate with fellow fans as well as get interesting info about unexpected topics.

As to Willie, I had thought that his "even keeled" approach would work as the clubhouse seemed to have a good mix of vets/younger players and they would police themselves. Totally wrong - and I cannot help but look at the collapse as you have - that the manager failed to inspire/cajole/will his team to victory. The complacency in the clubhouse was clear all year - how many championship teams in recent memory have to shave their heads in April to demonstrate unity - and symptoms of the collapse in Sept were apparent in June.

Two issues may come up about Willie - one that they just finished paying off "Battling" Art Howe, and that there will be the usual sentiment that he can spend the offseason turning around a team that's so close. Omar must realize that the $5+ mil owed Willie is peanuts compared to the danger lurking in another bad year. And, I agree that Willie's attitude to younger players/experimenting will cause further damage. Even though I do not care for Girardi, his is a name that comes to mind (though another ex-Yankee may be more than I can stand). Let's hope Omar realizes how hard it was to build this team and make the most dispassionate and intelligent move possible and bring in a leader who inspires confidence from both the players and the fans...

9:28 PM

 
Blogger metsnyc said...

There will surely be a house cleaning and although many think Willie's gone, I don't think so. He has issues but he didn't throw one pitch this year. I place blame on the gutless play that they displayed for much of the season. Hopefully this tragedy provides some motivation for 2008.

10:24 PM

 
Anonymous benny said...

Regarding Willie and a new manager, honestly, I feel that you can't do it. I've never liked Willie from the get go, everyone knows this, in my opinion he NEVER should have been hired BUT to be fair, you can't fire him now. Besides the fact he has some years left on his contract, he's had winning seasons in all his seasons as a manager, he "led" the team to the playoffs last year. And was very close this year. I just personally don't think it'd be "fair" to fire him.
if I were Omar, if I was GM and in charge of the team, I would just give him the benefit of the doubt.
I would love to Fire Willie but you can’t.
We’ll see how he does in 2008 and go from there, its only fair.
I know the Mets have won in spite of him the past seasons but fuck it, you just can't do that. If they start slacking next season then, See Ya Later Willie.

Jeffy Wilpon is pissed. And I don't blame him, I'd be pissed too if I lost a potential $15 million. I stayed pretty late after the game yesterday and he was welcomes to a chorus of "Fire Willie" when he left the stadium. By the way, Omar is a pretty tall guy.

I actually have faith in Omar. In his 2 years going on 3, Omar has only made on REAL head-scratching move and that was Schoenwiess, and that's cause he was out-foxed by the reliever market, he tried to hard in that regard and got played and then acted out of desperation and got a very succesful LOOGY.
YOU HEAR THAT WILLIE!? A LOOGY AND NOTHING MORE!
ANyways, I think Omar can and will get it done, he's a smart guy that has been making very smart moves.

Yeah next season is going to be VERy tricky. People are going to be skeptical all season long. It's going to be a looking over your shoulder type of season, in terms of fans. Its like when a girl cheats on you, if you decide to get back with them, you don't REALLY trust them, not good. There won't be any trust until there is a gaurantee of a Mets NLDS in October. If they clinch next season will be when the fans FINALLY open up to the MEts again and that's not good for the stadium atmosphere or for ticket sales before and during the season. And even MORE potential money to be lost.

Quick question, why is Joe Girardi considered an ex-Yankee exclusively. Everywhere he goes that's his label, that's his tag, that's his selling point. But he spent "only" 4 years as Yankee, as opposed to 7 years as a Cub AND he's a Peoria, IL NATIVE! WTF!?

WHy can't Milledge be left the fuck alone? Enough already, jeeze, hop off his dick people!!!!!

10:55 PM

 
Blogger mr. met said...

Honestly….give me Carter or Oberkfell. I don’t need no stinkin’ flashy signing of some ex-Yankee player/coach who has a pedigree of winning. Just someone who can manager. Fuck the media and what they have to say about a ‘no namer’. Just get someone who is affable and can manage game of baseball without making egregious errors.

Lindstrom and Owens would be welcome. I still think the trade was not the worst in principle, but it certainly backfired and ultimately has to be on Omar’s shoulders.

mike…..thanks. I also have to say thanks to everyone else who stops by and chimes in. I really enjoy the open forum and it is the sole reason I do this. But yes….I entirely think Girardi is the wrong person. Why do the Mets need reel in another guy with Yankee Pedigree that knows how to win? Can they just get someone who knows what they are doing? Screw records….give them a comprehensive test about baseball.

I just think Willie is what he is. A below average manager who the media will like….especially here being an ex-Yankee. I’ve never seen a guy get such a pass from the media. But this media is sooooo Yankee slanted that he is the only guy they respect because he has so much post season experience while wearing pinstripes. If he was not an ex-Yankee, he would be getting lambasted. However, people are asking for him NOT to take the fall. I just don’t get it. He has given me quite a few gray hairs. But like you said, they need someone who inspires them and I think that word is a great. Players make so much money that is hard to motivate and inspire them. They lose? Great…..then get to go stay at a $5,000 a night hotel and relax for one month longer. Over the course of the year, it is probably extremely hard to keep players focused. No one wants to lose per se, but not every has that ‘Jimmy Rollins’ desire to win. Rollins made a statement and did nothing but reinforce that. I think Wright was certainly good enough to win the MVP, but I would not be complaining if Rollins won it.

Metsnyc…I would agree that he won’t be gone…but I think he absolutely should be. Also, do you really think he has that little to do with it? He did not throw a pitch, but he certainly had a lot to do with who threw those pitches or threw to many in some cases. A lot worried about Joe Smith’s use when he was on track for a crazy amount of games, and he seemingly burned out. Willie did a lot…I mean a lot of things wrong and the ‘gutless’ play at the end should be tied to the guy who is supposedly leading the team. He never seemed like he had any sense or urgency (which people do like about him) and the team echoed that sentiment up until the last day.

I hope this provides motivation, because an early playoff exit will not erase this….They need to make some serious waves next year.

Benny…he is an ex-Yankee because you live in NYC. If you lived in Alaska, I doubt you would hear much about that.

Ultimately though, I would tend to think I get treated to another year of Willie. GOOD TIMES! Whatever… Omar needs to Willie-proof the team more. I’m just absolutely disgusted though and I’m vehemently against another year of inefficiency, but I’m getting used to it being a Met fan.

11:40 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jorge Julio making a mess in the top of the 13th: SD 8, Col 6

-Will

12:01 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matsui doubles to open up the bottom of the 13th. Both of these teams have spirit.

12:11 AM

 
Anonymous benny blanco from da bronx said...

Oh man, Jorge Julio, haha, I really wanted the Rockies to win but I couldn't help but start dying of laughter when I saw that dinger.
THe annoucners were alking about all the available pitchers for the rockies and they showed the lineup card focused on the available bullpen arms in the dugout and saw Julio's name and shook my head and laughed, haha.
I knew that was going to happen, god that guy sucks ass.

Shit Mike, maybe you should be manager, reading your stuff just now has fired me up and motivated me to hate Willie Randolph alot more than I did 10 minutes ago and I hate him alot. Your right, why should mediocrity be rewarded or promoted?
Fuck that shit.

The moral of the story is the off-seaosn if going to be very fun.

Regarding the one game playoff between the Rockies and the Padres? HOLY SHIT! sick game...
I like the Rockies, I'll root for them the whole way.

12:15 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tulowitzi double, Holliday triple. It's tied up - all off Hoffman. Amazing. colorado could win it here.

12:15 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AND now, the team that replaced the Mets as winners in September, just did it. Carroll hit a SAC off Hoffman, COL 9 SD 8 FINAL.

12:19 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Everyone, thank you for your insight. I really appreciate your posts being that I live so far away now.

I'm as frustrated as ever but as a long time Mets fan, I am used to it. This still doesn't hurt as much as the 1988 loss to the Dodgers - or my high expectations for 1993...HAHAHAHAHA. What a fool I was. There have been a number of years I thought we should be in it.

-Will

12:19 AM

 
Anonymous cp said...

We're ticked and we need to vent but I doubt there's a single manager who most fans wouldn't trash because there are no perfect managers. Willie's not my cup of tea but he's not the reason this club collapsed. For all we know they would have won 82 games with someone else.

We got more than many thought we would from El Duque, Perez & Maine - maybe another manager gets 2 fewer wins from each of those guys - I doubt he gets two more.

Would Pinella, Cox, Torre, Girardi or LaRussa have gotten these guys to reach their potential? We'll never know but it's not that simple.

We had seasoned vets admitting they thought they were "so talented" they failed to get motivated. No one can manage established guys who think their talent entitles them to success. It's the downfall of all types of organizations and businesses. The only answer is to fire them and Willie isn't allowed to do that.

Then there's Jose. Willie repeatedly said he told him dancing was okay but down in the dugout. Did Jose ever listen? Now there are reports that even Willie's quiet, private talks with Jose led him to sulk. They sure didn't lead Jose to hustle.

Is that on Willie or is Jose just a flawed young player who might have quit on the club in May if Girardi had chewed his butt off?

Maybe Jose's still got too much spoiled teenager in him. They're awfully hard to make an impresison on no matter how hard or what style you try. Sometimes the harder you try the more they shut down. I think Jose's failures have alot more to do with him than with Willie. Hopefully he'll grow out of them - we'll know in a couple of years.

In the end the club just wasn't near as talented as they thought. Jose's arguably the 4th best SS in the NL - in the 2nd half he was 2nd division.

The pre-season experts were right about the pitching - not that it sucked - just that it had too many question marks to be counted on.

The Phillies had more injuries, much more adversity and a ton more character. Was that because of Charlie Manuel or guys like Rollins & Rowand?

The playoff managers are: Torre, Francona, Sciosa, Pinella, Wedge, Melvin, Clint Hurdle & Manuel. Which of those would have given Jose baseball sense, Delgado hustle on pop ups, Glavine guts and Ollie consistency?

There's no formula for managing humans or predicting how they'll perform under stress - too many of these guys just don't have the stomachs of champions. How many of our starting eight have rings?

Looking forward we desperately need an ace who can lighten the load on the pen but have a barren farm system. Yes I said it - our young prospects just don't rank with the top half of other clubs systems. Several other clubs can top Fernando, Gomez & Humber if Santana hits the market.

Even worse in Wang, Hughes, Cabrera, Cano & Chamberlain the Yanks have as many if not more promising home grown players than the Mets.

Barring big strides by Pelfrey & Humber this club could easily be worse next season. Which free agent aces or stud relievers are going to transform us? And we lack enough chips to trade for an ace.

It might be the only way to get Santana would be to trade Jose which I'm NOT in favor of. Though there could be a free agent 3B/SS with a decent track record out there this off-season. That hard to imagine play might be the only way to substantially improve the pitching without sacrificing offense. How did Omar let it get to this?

The entire organizations confused "good citizens" with "good competitor." They played like a bunch of well-balanced citizens who know life goes on even if you lose. Glavine, Delgado, Wright & Beltran would be great neighbors - Jimmy Rollins might not be . . .

Could be Willie wanted to win as much as anyone and more than most. Doesn't make him a great manager but too many of these players may just be fatally flawed.

It's not like we Mets fans or bloggers are right very often . . . aside from our wrong take on the Mets remember the "Yanks run-differential proves they cannot rebound?" That the "Phils were stiffs and Manuel a dolt?" That the "schedule guaranteed we'd prevail if we could take a lead into DC?" That "once Pedro & Alou got back we'd play even better?" That "the power ranking guys were screwing us" simply because we're the Mets?

Thinking firing Willie is an answer is just as silly as those predictions/gripes were - kinda like asking for strategy from a manager who's never won more than 65 games.

12:56 AM

 
Anonymous brian b said...

from rotoworld.com

"Scott Schoeneweis received six steroid shipments from Signature Pharmacy while playing for the White Sox in 2003 and 2004, ESPN is reporting.
Just keep kicking the Mets while they're down. The source who reviewed the invoices said that Schoeneweis spent $1,160 on the steroids. He received five packages from May 2003 through 2004, five of which contained testosterone and three of which contained stanozolol. Schoeneweis just finished the first year of his three-year, $10.8 million contract with the Mets. He had a 5.03 ERA in 59 innings."

1:21 AM

 
Anonymous Two-By-Four said...

Brain b your post about Scott Schoeneweis from rotoworld.com and Chris Smith’s piece in New York Magazine would have been considered major sports news if the Mets were in the playoffs.

2:36 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

First off, just to echo everyone else's thoughts - thanks for all the work you put into this site. We all appreciate it and that's why we come here.

My thoughts on managers tend to be pretty simple - I like managers who are winning, and don't like managers who are losing. To me, there's no other way to judge them - there's WAY too much going on that we know NOTHING about.

So, in my opinion...Willie has to take most or some of the blame for this year. But you also have to gie him credit for 05 and 06. You can't call it a bad hiring - this team took massive steps under his leadership. Talent or no talent, that is a credit to the manager. Many teams acquire tons of talent and watch it fall apart on the field. However - maybe this team has plateaued with Willie. Maybe they need someone new.

That being said, no way does Willie get fired, now. Good or bad, it's just the way it is. He will, though, be on a short leash in 08. If the team doesn't get off strong, he'll be gone. But I'll bet anyone if he does go, you can forget Giradi, Carter, Oberkfell, or any of those guys. Felipe Alou or Sandy Alomar Jr is more likely in my mind. And frankly I'm not a big fan of either...

As for this team getting younger, I just don't get how that falls on Willie's shoulders. It's Omar, not Willie, who relies on veterans too much. He's the one who signs and trades for them. If Omar was a fan of Gotay, he wouldn't have traded for Castillo. If Omar felt Humber deserved some Sep starts, he would have called him up before Lawrence. If he believed in Bell and Lindstrom, he wouldn't have traded them and signed Mota and Show. If this team wants to get younger, that's on Omar to go out and get younger players instead of aging veterans.

A couple moves I'd love to see the Mets make in the offseason are get rid of Rickey, move El Duque to the pen, and see if they can trade for Bill Hall to play 2B. I think the Brewers could be tempted to get rid of Hall for a reasonable price, and he'd be a nice upgrade for second base. El Duque, Heilman, Feliciano, and Wagner would be the start of an effective bullpen. They'd need to add one more starter to go with Pedro, Perez, Maine and Pelfrey/Humber, but I think that's a nice start.

At least those are my thoughts. Should be an interesting offseason.

- ube

2:58 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The managerial situation could be worse:

http://shakedownsports.com/2007/09/27/whats-the-deal-with-jim-tracy/

6:27 AM

 
Anonymous the brooklyn bum said...

Well, it's been a while since I've posted (I've been lurking the entire time).

Willie has to go; there are no if ands or buts about it.

What I want in a manager is simply this: A person that gives the team the best chance of winning 162 times a season. A person that doesn't value some quaint notion of 'how the game is supposed to be played' over how the game is played today or what talent you have. A person that does not stunt player development. And most importantly a person that has a better reasoning process than 'his gut'.

There really is only one option to replace him: Gary Carter. He took our minor league teams to the playoffs consistently when we were depleted of talent. Being a catcher, and hearing what Ronnie had to say about him, I would have to assume that he has a better sense for pitching match ups, in game strategy, and massaging pitcher's egos.

This team didn't deserve to go to the playoffs, but they felt entitled to it.

Now, some nuts and bolts for the off season:

Players that should not be coming back
Glavine
Mota
Green
Valentin
Easley
Lo Duca
Platers that should only come back under the right contract terms
Alou
Castillo
El Duque
Players that should come back
Marlon Anderson
Castro

I'm sure I'm missing some people, but that's what I got off the top of my head.

Now Omar! Go forth and procure Johan The Savior whatever the cost.

8:00 AM

 
Anonymous Danny said...

Reyes is not the 4th best SS in the NL. That is just silly talk. I guess you are saying that Hanley, Rollins and Tulowitzki are better.

Hanley is a third baseman. He's a great offensive player but was BY FAR the worst defensive SS in all of baseball. It's not even close. He's a spectacular offensive player, so I will say that his overall season was probably better than Reyes' this year. And they are roughly the same age. So fine, I will give you that one, but very grudgingly.

Sorry, I refuse to give you Jimmy Rollins. Reyes was A LOT better than Jimmy Rollins last year. Like, it wasn't even close. Rollins had a better year this year no doubt, but to me they are about the same right now, except that Jose is 5 years younger and Rollins plays in a fantastic offensive park. Who would I rather have? Reyes, by a landslide.

Troy Tulowitzki, really? I like his defense but check out his home/road splits. I can only imagine what numbers Reyes would put up if he played 81 games in that joke of a ballpark.

Reyes had a bad ending to the season. Maybe he is not a spoiled brat or whatever psychobabble people are putting out there... I don't know, maybe he went in a slump. Maybe he was tired. He attempted 99 steals. They need to reign him back a little. People don't understand the punishment that Reyes puts his body through playing 160 games at shortstop and attempting 100 steals. He wore down AND slumped at the same time.

Don't let him steal as often and give him the occasional day off. See Reyes be one of the top 5 players in the NL.

It's just funny to me, because a lot of people were telling me that Wright was overrated at the end of last year and all through April this year. Simply put, the cream rises to the top. Wright and Reyes are cream. Reyes just has to clear a hurdle that all great, young players go through.

Please, enough with the hate on Reyes.

8:50 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Brooklyn Bum - I agree on those players, though Glavine can come back if he wants to (player option) and Castillo I think can go since wherever he signs we get a 1st round comp pick.

Also reports say that Willie will be back. I say good, as long as the team gets over hauled.

There's nothing worthy on the FA market. So there's not much you can do on that end. I still want to trade for Santana (Milledge, Maine, Pelfrey and P/OF) and then my guess is they'll sign Jose Guillen if he does not resign with the M's. Maybe it's time to trade Heilman, perhaps Baltimore for Ramon Hernandez. This leaves you with Delgado-Gotay-Reyes-Wright in the INF. Alou-Beltran-Guillen in the OF.
Castro and Hernandez behind the plate. Gomez, Chavez in the OF, A. Hernandez at least on the bench. SP of Santana, Pedro, Perez, Orlando and Humber. If not Humber sign a solid #4 guy (I have no idea). Sanchez will be back for the 8th, Pedro, Smith and Sosa to go with Wagner. Get a decent innings eater in the BP for mop up duties.

Reyes
Gotay
Wright
Beltran
Guillen
Delgado
Alou
Hernandez/Castro

Santana
Pedro
Perez
Orlando
Humber

- Nokes

10:28 AM

 
Blogger mr. met said...

I saw that Julio dinger as well. I just had a bad feeling with him in there. Proof that having a good arm does not have much to do with results {cough, Mota, cough, cough}.

Benny….if I can motivate one person to hate Willie more, I’ve done my job.

Will….this hurts but in a different way than 1988. I mean, this collapse is bad for the ego and listening to all the talk radio hosts beam with happiness over this collapse makes me sick. It’s like this is Philly or Atlanta radio with the way these guys hate the Mets.

CP…I agree every manager would garner some negative responses from any fanbase, but I think it is clear that Willie falls short in some very important areas. Would someone else have made a difference? I’m not sure, but you cannot glaze over the fact the front office does not implicitly trust him and the players lack of drive and ability to wake themselves up has to be a poor reflection on their skipper, no? There have been rumblings also that the players were losing some respect for him from what I can remember.

Is that on Willie or is Jose just a flawed young player who might have quit on the club in May if Girardi had chewed his butt off?

Right…which is the point. If Willie’s style did not get through, then he is not the right guy for the job, which is my point. Who is? I’m not sure, but I think we know who it might not be.

Out of your guys, give me Scioscia, Pinella, or Wedge or Bud Black.

The entire organizations confused "good citizens" with "good competitor." They played like a bunch of well-balanced citizens who know life goes on even if you lose.

Which is not a reflection of Willie’s style? He was too even keeled for a team that was too even keeled. They need some fire. If that is not going to come from the players, who is going to come from? My answer…the manager. He is not the right guy for this team and this year reinforced that. While people were giving him accolades, I stayed true to my opinion and frankly I think it is the correct assessment.

Brian b, that is certainly great news about Scottie. Great stuff….just what we need!

My thoughts on managers tend to be pretty simple - I like managers who are winning, and don't like managers who are losing. To me, there's no other way to judge them - there's WAY too much going on that we know NOTHING about.

Ube….we can also evaluate them by what we see in games. I’ve watched enough baseball and played enough to be able to make an educated opinion. You are 100% correct about things that go on behind closed doors that we do not know about, but doesn’t this teams reported entitlement issues and lack of urgency have a HUGE correlation to Willie? It is extremely reminiscent of when Howe’s team quit on him. Also, for a team that needs to get younger, they need a guy who can cultivate that youth plain and simple.

As for this team getting younger, I just don't get how that falls on Willie's shoulders. It's Omar, not Willie, who relies on veterans too much.

I respectfully disagree here. Willie had all Sept. to give Humber something outside of one inning and could have asserted some sort influence on this team. To say that Willie does not have an aversion to young guys does not jive with me. I’ve seen nothing to suggest he does not heavily favor experience…hence LoDuca batting even after they pulled the lefty….a slap singles hitter with the bases loaded and down by six? They needed a fucking double. Willie has consistently saved his best pinch hitters for situations that did not happy. If you have a chance early in the game to get back in it, YOU DO NOT SAVE ANYONE. That is what Willie does and that is the benchmark of a guy with no reasoning skills.

As for the getting younger, they have a lot of inhouse guys that are just about ready. I think we can agree that with Milledge, Gomez, Humber, Pelfrey, Jose, Wright, Ollie, Kunz, Smith, Mulvey, and Maine…they need someone that trusts young guys and lets skill dictate who plays and not service time.

I’m all for getting rid of Rickey…a lot of unnecessary distraction. I like your moves and need to get something out tonight about the direction….

And again for the record, I don’t see Willie getting axed….I just think he is the wrong man for the job.

Brooklynbum….good stuff.

Danny…I praise the Reyes love. Experts still take him 8 out of 10 times over everyone else…I’m sure there are always two Met haters out of ten that let their feelings blind their reasoning skills.

10:40 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Met - I understand we have different thoughts on Willie, and managers in general. I've also played ball for years as a catcher, which I found very educational. I'm right there with cp - if you watch any manager every day, you'll begin to question his moves. Especially one with a horrible bullpen.

As for the closed doors stuff, I agree completely. The collapse this year has to fall at least part on Willie. I also give him credit for the rise the two previous years. Which is why I bring him back, but on a short leash. I guess, from a results standpoint, I would give Willie a B+ in 05, A in 06, and maybe D this year. 05 & 06 buy him at least the right to start 08 as manager. Just my thoughts.

I guess we just see different sides of the young player thing. If Omar trusted Milledge, he wouldn't have traded for Green late in 06. Once Green's on this team, it's Willie's job to juggle playing time between him and Milledge. Omar puts Burgos and Smith in the bullpen, and Willie had NO problem going to those guys in big spots while they were healthy.

brooklyn bum - I get a very different impression of Ronnie's opinion on Carter then you do. I do not think Ronnie was very impressed with Carter handling a pitching staff from his stories...

- ube

12:06 PM

 
Anonymous the brooklyn bum said...

Nokes,

After his game 162 performance there is no way Glavine can be a Met. There was an uneasy truce between him and the fans while he was performing, but after losing the game less than 10 minutes after it started was the end of that. If he exercises the player option against the Mets' wishes it will tarnish his 'legacy' once and for all. There are more than enough arms in the organization to replace his 13-8/4.45 for the league minimum.

I'm happy to have Castillo back, but it won't be the end of the world if he leaves and we get a draft pick. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

I think Willie has proven over and over again that he works well with veterans that 'buy' into his system. That worked last year (2006) when the youngest players were Wright and Reyes. However, the way he has stunted Lastings' growth and allowed not so subtly racist 'hazing'. A lot of it could be explained away if he was a superior tactician that understood the nuances of the game or if he was a superior motivator that got his players to play above their talent for him. But he's neither. He's a terrible tactician that refuses to acknowledge that the game has changed since he played. And his 'steady as she goes' attitude works wonders when the team has a 15 game lead in September, but obviously he can't get his men up.

I've heard all the excuses too (not directed at anyone here in particular):

They are professionals, they don't need to be motivated.

Willie's steady leadership soothes out the rough spots and losing streaks.

Willie's 'winning attitude' is worth overlooking his obvious flaws.

And worst of all, Willie is from 'Yankee pedigree' and therefor is above reproach (this one only comes from traditional media)


It's time for the Wilpons to realize what some of did in 2005, that this team is not winning anything with Willie as the manager.

12:18 PM

 
Blogger mr. met said...

If Omar trusted Milledge, he wouldn't have traded for Green late in 06.

Well, I'm not in agreement on that one. He was too young and did not have all that many at-bats. I liked the Green move because it created insurance and another bat to have in the playoffs, but I was not for it meaning the end of the line for Milledge, but insurance and a fair shot still Lastings to prove his worth. They picked him up for no talent and was the right thing to do.

I agree Glavine is 100% gone. He gave us some good starts, but who trusts this guy? He simply does not the stuff to fight through adversity if he is off one night and he is not going to add value outside of eating innings. This team needs to move on.

brooklyn bum....those quotes are priceless. Really just proves my point. And if no one needs to be motivated, why even have a manager? I thought that is exactly what Willie did? Motivates his guys to play for him.

Winning attitude? Please. I'm sick of hearing that crap.

12:32 PM

 
Anonymous benny said...

What the fuck does that even mean though, "Yankee Pedigree" that's non-sense if I"ve ever heard it.
I guess it comes from the same guys that believe in curses, as well as Yankee Mystique and Aura.

And the whole Willie always being a winner thing? Enough, he happened to be a part of an organization that won 6 world series championships while he was a coach. I didn't know waving players home or telling them to stop was so impactful and something only winners can achieve.l

12:40 PM

 
Anonymous DG said...

I'm not for Carter as a manager personally. If you want Bobby Valentine again, hire Bobby Valentine. What did Klapisch say today? I paraprhase: Maybe managing in Japan taught him some humility! Oberkfell would be fine, and I would not be surprised to see him take a spot on the Mets coaching staff this year.

Both Davidoff & Klap are on different sides of the same equation today. Davidoff says 'no way'; Klap says "yes way." Willie will be on the hot seat but not fired. I don't think I need to say this, but I agree with MikeyO - wrong type of manager for the team. Man, in today's must read, Klapisch wails on Willie for his handling of Reyes, and Reyes is way more important to NY's future than Willie. He better make amends.

Milledge was not ready for primetime in 2006, which was why the Mets acquired Green. But this summer, had he not been hurt, he would have garnered a lot of playing time. 20 dingers would be a fair estimate of what we would have had from him, and Gomez would have been ready for the show in 2008 if Lasto had not been hurt, but now Gomez needs a year in Not Orleans.

Pressure will be very strong for the Mets to trade Gomez, not Milledge, in any deal for an ace. Milledge's bad rep and immediate usefullness to the Mets work against him being traded. Ideally you'd like to see both in the outfield in 2009. Gomez is exciting.

And no way the Mets bring in Jose Guillen. I don't even understand why they would want to. My dream acquisition - outside of Johan - would be Orlando Hudson. And if the Mets were sprecifically going to acquire an outfielder, there's a nice free agent out of Philly, a banger with plenty of balls named Aaron Rowand.

Oh, and acquire a bullpen already!

12:51 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aaron Rowand is a Center Fielder. Why would he come here?? So he can play/right or left? Can we please just get a player who plays his own position? That's why Jose Guillen would fit. Yes, he has anger issues. But you know, I hate to say it, but surrounded with a group of Latin veterans might do him some good. This is the option only if you dont include Milledge in a package for Santana. The time is now to get Santana!!

- Nokes

1:01 PM

 
Blogger mr. met said...

Just for the record, Ed Coleman said that the Mets might entertain trading Beltran for a pitcher being his is very marketable and a consummate professional that does not make waves.

Hence making Rowand a possible attraction.

1:56 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Met - I don't think I did a good job conveying my point on Green and Milledge. What I was trying to say is once Omar traded for Green, Willie obviously *has* to use him. If Omar just wanted Green for 06, then he should have looked to dump him in a trade or even cut him before 07. If he's on the team, you have to figure he'll play at least somewhat. And I don't think it's fair to say Willie made it "the end of the line" for Milledge. Despite missing 10 weeks (and only being on the roster for 10 weeks), he still got nearly 200 AB's. Keep in mind Green only got 440 AB's over the whole year (22 weeks). Essentially they evenly split time, and if the GM is going to put a guy like Green on the team, and if neither Green nor Milledge is going to outplay the other (their OPS were identical), I don't think it's reasonable to expect the manager to split up the playing time otherwise.

On the other hand, while you guys know I stick up for Willie often, anyone who doesn't think he deserves blame for this is being polyanna. As I said earlier, it's tough to give him higher than a D given how this year ended. I think the argument a Willie supporter has is what Omar said - you have to look at the body of work over three years. But make no mistake, my radar is up and Willie is on the proverbial hot seat. This team may have very well outgrown him. We'll see...

I also heard the Beltran comments on the WFAN's webcast, and I don't get it. Whether you like Beltran or don't (and I love him), I just don't get how the team gets better trading him. Take him out of the cleanup spot, and that lineup isn't very good. And neither Rowand nor Hunter is going to be close to replacing 33 HRs and 110 RBIs.

Plus, this is the wrong offseason to try and trade him. If you're (let's say) Houston, why would you trade Oswalt plus pay the remaining $90M on his contract? You could sign Rowand or Hunter for probably $75M and keep your ace. Even if I wanted to trade Beltran, I just can't see anyone giving up their ace for him when they can just go sign Hunter, Rowand, or even Andrue and keep their ace. And I'm not trading him for less than someone's ace. Doesn't make sense when you get into the details...

No???

-ube

2:31 PM

 
Blogger mr. met said...

I just think he could have had his talk a lot earlier with Green giving Milledge a chance to give the Mets some upside. Green had none to offer but floundered for weeks. Willie definitely had a choice.

Right...you cannot replace Beltran, but given the choice...big time starter with Hunter or Rowand or Beltran in center with no big time starter was the argument. He is the most marketable piece which was the basis of the argument. Not that I support that notion, but you catch my drift.

The Astros would never want Beltran. They would want Humber, Milledge, Gomez, etc....

They direly need to get younger and absolutely should trade him somewhere as they have a bottom three system with not much going on overall.

3:01 PM

 
Anonymous DG said...

Beltran? Trade? That would be such a Met move, it scares me! The only case that even works is in a Johan trade, but I still don't see how the Mets improve giving up a sure 30-40 home run hitter.

No, I'd have no problem going for Rowand who has played other positions besided center in the outfield. I don't think it is that farfetched, but no way you trade Beltran without stepping backwards. Hmmn...

3:18 PM

 
Anonymous cp said...

Danny,

I'm not trying to trash reyes but I find it very hard to consider him an elite player when he put up a 251/316/402/718 post All-Star break. That's not a small sample size (323 ABs) it even trails Mark Loretta's .724 mark.

Jose was aruably the best player in the league in the first half and likely the biggest failure in the second half.

When I said Jose was "arguably" the 4th best SS in the league a) I said "arguably" and b) I was slotting Renteria in w/Rollins & Ramirez as the other 3 you could argue had better years than Jose. As for Rollins last season - I was referring to 2007.

I pray Jose becomes the elite player we see as his mantle but compare his 2007 to 2006: BA: -.020, OBP: identicle, SLG & OPS: -66, steals +14. Steals are great but not at that cost.

Like many supremely talented players Jose may be at that point of his career where he will only improve if he matures.

Hopefully he will and leave those other guys in the dust - but the last two months suggest that's a step he's yet to comprehend much less actually take.

3:26 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Met - Sorry, just used the Astros as an example. Should have clarified. My point was Beltran is less marketable than he should be, because of the glut of CF's on the FA market. And if no one is offering you top dollar for him, then you can't trade him.

Here's my take on the Mets getting younger. For the last two years Omar has been trying to play it both ways - win now and develop for the future. I don't think that's even remotely debatable. Some of his moves - signing Alou, Valentin, El Duque, etc. - are obviously completely predicated on this year only. On the other hand, not trading any of the kids for another starter, big bat, etc. is clearly geared toward the future at the expense of this year. So Omar's obviously trying to play it both ways, and so by extension Willie is caught in that.

I think we should all be careful what we wish for, because I'm not sure Omar can play it both way again. And if fans are pushing on the Mets, you can't convince me he won't go for it all next year. If that's the case, you might see something ridiculous like Milledge, Pelfrey, Humber, and Gomez for Santana. I'd hate to see us do that...

-ube

3:33 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No. What I would hate to see is Santana on the Yankees, or Red Sox or in LA, when you could have had him for Milledge, Pelfrey, Gomez and Maine.

Offer the deal, if the Twins accept, you have a 72 hour window to sign him long term. You're gonna have to give him Zito-type money and I'll do it. If there is no agreement, then the deal is off the table. What is so hard about offering a deal??

Beltran can not go anywhere because he has a full no-trade. Unless he accepts, we're 'stuck' with him.

- Nokes

4:23 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

PLEASE GOD give us Santana for Milledge, Pelfrey, Humber and Gomez. Are you kidding me???!

Santana, Pedro, Maine, Perez...that's all I have to say.

You are dreaming if you think the Twins would let Santana leave without one proven major league ready pitcher. No chance.

Anthony

6:16 PM

 
Anonymous Two-By-Four said...

Trade the farm for Santana? Well the Mets tried that approach in 1989 when they acquired Frank Viola. How many post season appearances did they make because of that deal?

Answer: 0

Randolph will be back. Aren't we lucky.

The notorious Wallace Mathews for once has a column that is right on. It’s worth reading.

I understand Anna Benson has a new pictorial in tribute to the 2007 Mets. Her clothes “melt” off her body over a 2 week period.

The way you cope with being a Mets fan is to remember that being a fan is

1. a marathon and not a sprint

2. you must keep an even keel

3. you have to go with the ebbs and flows

4. make your decision as to whether or not to see a ballgame using your gut.

6:32 PM

 
Anonymous Pavan said...

You're comparing Frank Viola to Johan Santana?

I'd do that trade for Santana in a heartbeat.

7:19 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The disaster deal I mentioned was for an UNSIGNED Santana, and yes I would consider that package a disaster for a one year rental, even for the best pitcher in baseball.

If you want to make this about a SIGNED Santana, then:
- Make the package Maine, Heilman, Milledge and Fmart, or something else as ludicrous.
- Double the money Zito got, since they are not in the same world as pitchers. Zito had, what, 3 teams chasing him? Santana knows he will have 10-15 beating down his door. And while guys may take paycuts to stay with a team (Oswalt, Zambrano), I've never heard of a guy taking one to go to a new team.

I would consider that deal just as much, maybe more, of a disaster. The Mets would have so many holes to fill, with no prospects and a bloated budget to do it. Plus they would turn a team being built for the long haul to one that has a 2-3 year window at most.

Some folks want to sacrifice everything to win now, some want to build slowly and are willing to live with the growing pains to get to the top and stay there. Personally, I am in the latter group...

-ube

8:00 PM

 
Anonymous Two-By-Four said...

In 1987 Frank Viola was 24-7 and in 1990 for the Mets he was 20-12. Those are not bad numbers. But even with Viola’s 20 wins the club did not make the post season. It takes more than one guy, even a 20 game winner, to make the playoffs. Even a Santana pitches once every 5 games. If you trade away top everyday players to get him what happens during those other 4 games. Unfortunately you don’t have a Santana quality pitcher for those other 4 games and you’ve crashed your future.

10:33 PM

 
Anonymous benny blanco from da bronx said...

Ed Coleman said that the Mets might entertain trading Beltran for a pitcher being his is very marketable and a consummate professional that does not make waves.

How trading Beltran makes the Mets a better team is beyond me? I don't think we as fans realise just how good he is, especially with his defense. When he's out there I have no worries about balls dropping. He glides out there, he's REALLY good. And trading him as a knee jerky reaction is not a good idea, especially considering his defense.

Two-by-four, I would trade Milledge, Humber, Pelfrey, and Gomez for one year of Santana, and I don't even need a 72 hour window. If he wants the big bucks, he resigns and all is good. If not then, that's life, you deal with it, you move on, get your 2 draft picks, and boo him in 2009.

12:31 AM

 
Blogger Itsmetsforme said...

i cant get into all the off-season yet.

I just have one question: anyone else having trouble looking directly at the final NL East standings? I mean i cant physically look directly at them, like the sun or patrick ewing.

1:09 AM

 
Anonymous DG said...

“I tried to cut my throat, but I aimed too high.” by Willie Randolph:

“I thought they were a little uncomfortable with the spiral,” Randolph said of his players. “Because you’ve never experienced that, we can’t assume that a player is going to get himself back in the right direction.”
...
“When you go through it, you don’t feel like you’re being complacent,” Randolph said. “But when you look back, you kind of have to look yourself in the mirror and say, ‘Well, maybe that’s what it was at times.’ It’s a funny thing to define, but at times we didn’t put the hammer down like we said.”
....
Randolph had grown increasingly tired of the elaborate celebrations that were performed in full view of the opponent; in his day, Randolph often said, that just did not happen.

But he never seemed able to quell that issue, which recurred throughout the season and culminated in the choreographed high-fiving between Reyes and Milledge on Saturday that may have helped start a bench-clearing brawl.

“I don’t take it personally,” Randolph said. “I just hammer at them again. I don’t make excuses for young players. They’re professionals. They need to know better. But there is only so much you can do as a coach or a manger as far as teaching a kid how to act professionally, how to respond and handle himself.”
....
Glad he took full responsibility and blamed the players. I don't know, this powerless to change things doesn't seem very managerial does it?

And the NY media's pinning the Glavine debacle on the Millede/Reyes handshake is just ridiculous when we all know that Milledge & Reyes started the War in Iraq and ruined the national economy!

2:08 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i just noticed the zebra's noodle from the previous post. i wondered what the pic had to do with the metes.

9:03 AM

 
Anonymous brian b said...

Has anybody looked at the list of free agents for this offseason? I wasn't real impressed.

10:13 AM

 
Anonymous jake said...

been busy, just caught up. yes, thanks mike, especially for keeping it up through the new job and world travels, etc. where else do you read about the mets and get 20 guys excellent music recommendations... i still have that chat's printout...

of course willie takes blame. if your strongpoint is intangibles/coaching/clubhouse spirit and you preside over the biggest collapse ever then what is your redeeming argument? unfortunately in this case it can't be tactical management. hopefully no one took my sarcastic post seriously the other day... people like me who backed willie when people like mike were questioning him were wrong. it's simple and obvious.

beltran is the mets best player. he ain't going nowhere.

reyes demise was the biggest problem, even worse than the pitching. imho. (except for my asshole friends stealing my mets fan)

gotta run. it feels awesome talking about the mets.

FUCK WILLIE!

10:39 AM

 
Anonymous Dang G said...

Glavine is saying that he may turn down his option. He's going back to Atlanta, and that's a good thing. No malice by that, just we can do better with a younger pitcher.

Further interesting that El Duque is being operated on for a tendon and not the bunion. The whole bunion story just sounded odd to me. My grandmother used to go get her bunions cut off. I accompanied her once (in the 70's). It still makes my stomach curl.

Jake, Ed Coleman brought up the Beltran scenario on WFAN. It just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

11:17 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If you trade away top everyday players to get him what happens during those other 4 games."

What happens during those other four games when Santana is not pitching you ask? Pedro, Maine, Perez, fill in blank 5th starter (Duque, youngster, etc). That's what happens under this trade scenario discussed. I will take that rotation all day long.

I'm also trying to figure out which top every day player is in Milledge, Pelfrey, Humber, Gomez? None of these are "top every day players" or even close to it. Beltran yes, Reyes yes...I would not trade either one of those players in which Coleman and Olney threw out there. That would be insane.

But there is no way I'm comparing Frank Viola and 89' to Johan Santana and this current staff/team.

Agree with you Jake on the Willie front. Not feeling good at all about going with him next year. HAVE to figure out the Reyes thing too. He is the KEY thing to this teams success. Love that kid and want to see him be what he should be.

FUCK Glavine. There was an article in the Atlanta paper saying that they won't want him back either. He very well may be without a team next year.

Anthony

2:06 PM

 

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