A blog dedicated to the New York Mets with some other baseball thrown in.

Wednesday, December 20, 2006

Talky Talky....Mets Talky

Rob Neyer? Not fond of the Mets. However, I do like Mr. Neyer and I will not hold it against him.

JB (Kutztown, PA): Don't you think Endy Chavez has earned the right to be a starter? He's the best defensive OF the Mets have and Alou played 99 games last year. Oh yea he's also 41. What's the deal?

SportsNation Rob Neyer: I do not. Chavez's career stats suggest that he's a fourth outfielder. At best.

I do agree with Neyer here, but did he have to throw in that 'at best' business? I think Endy finally came into a situation conducive to letting him relax and play the role that he is supposed to play and was certainly the right age to break out. While he may not be as good as his 2006 form, I do think he will be a productive player for the duration of his career if he plays within himself and sticks the roles he should be in.

Chris(NY): If the Mets sign Zito, will Oliver Perez still be assured a rotation spot? I dont think it is well remembered, but before his dominant 2004 year, he almost didnt make the Pirates rotation out of spring training, but then he made the most of his chance. Maybe the Mets just need to apply some pressure to him. No better place for pressure than NY.

SportsNation Rob Neyer: I wish Oliver Perez a long and successful career, but his performance in that last game will likely be his legacy. He's still got a good arm and he'll get more chances, but a championship contender really doesn't have the luxury of blowing a dozen starts on a guy who can't pitch.

Can't pitch? I certainly have to disagree with that and that is not me just being a homer. He has a good arm and all the tools you need to be an extremely successful big league pitcher. Mid 90's fastball? Check. Biting slider that makes professional players look stupid? Check. Competitive edge? Check. At the every worst, he should be an very good set-up man or even closer. At best, he can be a #1 or #2 starter in this league. Realistically, I think he'll be a very good starter capable of tossing out gems but settling in as a mid-rotation guy overall.

Jason (NY): Why are the Mets reluctant to put Heilman in the rotation?

SportsNation Rob Neyer: Probably because in 25 career starts he's 5-13 with a 5.93 ERA. I'd give him another shot, too, but it's not hard to understand why the Mets aren't so eager.

Well, that's not fair since we all know he was more successful in the bigs after dropping his arm, but that's neither here nor there. It does seem clear the Mets do not have the utmost confidence in him as a starter or they might not be looking to deal for one at the cost of losing him. If the Mets fail to get Zito and cannot pull of a trade, it certainly merits giving him a look.

Overall, not many good things to say about the Mets in the chat by Mr. Neyer and I do think he was being a bit hard on them. Perhaps it's jealousy and perhaps it is just some New York bias.

While on the topic of people Mr. Neyer is not a fan of....

Before trying to put him in some sort of context, let's split Zito's six full seasons in half: 2001-2003 (Part 1), and 2004-2006 (Part 2, so far) …
        Starts Innings  BB   SO  HR   ERA  RSAA
Part 1 105 675 246 533 61 3.17 92
Part 2 103 662 269 485 81 4.05 34
Through the 2003 season, Zito was a special pitcher (by the way, RSAA stands for Runs Saved Above Average, courtesy of the Complete Baseball Encyclopedia). Since 2003, though? Not so much. The walks and homers and ERA are up ( i.e. bad), the strikeouts and Runs Saved Above Average are down (ditto).

How does Zito compare to some of the other top young starters in the game? Considering only 2004 through 2006, here are some of our special pitchers:
        Starts Innings  ERA  RSAA
Santana 101 693 2.75 137
Oswalt 102 699 3.14 93
B. Webb 101 672 3.40 87
C'penter 93 645 3.10 85
Halladay 72 495 3.24 80
Zito 103 662 4.05 34
That is not an exhaustive list, by any means. Over the last three seasons, Zito ranks just 27th among starters in Runs Saved Above Average. With 34, he's behind not only those luminaries listed above, but also (among others) fellow left-handers Buehrle (58 RSAA), Pettitte (56), Dontrelle Willis (48), Rogers (46), Glavine (40) and C.C. Sabathia (36). We might be charitable, and bump Zito up a few spots because he's been pitching in the tougher league. Still pretty hard to argue that he's one of the 20 best starters in the majors (especially if we give Oakland's defense as much credit for his recent success as it probably deserves).

Ouch. We already went over the other day how much Zito actually compares with Glavine through the same ages in their respective careers in a more offensively charged era and he is very quick to take a look at those last three years when one season is especially out of line with the rest. Zito posted his lowest win total, highest ERA, and highest h/9 in one of those years and averaged a 7.93 h/9, 1.30 WHIP, 6.45 k/9, and won thirty games to twenty three losses in the other two.

Furthermore, I'm not allergic to stats like RSAA or anything, but sometimes fancy baseball stats aren't the end all be all. I do not care what RSAA says, but Rogers, Buehrle, Pettitte, Glavine, and possibly even Dontrelle Willis are not better than Barry Zito and will not outperform him if Zito is in Queens next season.

From DG in the comments last night...

"During his career, Zito has won an astounding 95.5 percent of the games in which Oakland scored at least four runs for him and was 15-0 last year in such games for the light-hitting A's (and 16-0 when they scored three or more runs)."

Someone want to send this to Marty Noble?

Swellicious. Sign me for five years of that with an easily attainable sixth year option.

* * *

  • The Mets signed five minor league free agents. It's good to see WillieCollazo back in '07.

  • If I hear any more Melky to the Pirates for Mike Gonzalez rumors, I might crap my pants. Really, he will be a league average player at the zenith of his career and more likely a borderline starter. Yes, he is 22 and hit .280 last season, but that does not change the fact he is in a lineup that could make Mario Mendoza look like a decent player. The Pirates may be targeting Melky so they can use him to acquire LaRoche, but why would the Braves go for that? Please, just make these Gonzo to the Yankees deals go away.

  • Dare to dream...

    Look, they both want it so it can be worked out amicably and they could end this soon. We all know that each side will have to make some concessions if a deal is to get done, but they should be able to wrap this thing up sooner rather than later. It remains to be seen what is actually true as no one else is saying much, but it certainly would not surprise me. Hopefully this should be wrapped up before the New Year.

    Anonymous benny blanco from da bronx said...

    Rob Neyer keeps it real, his only "problem" i guess is that he only thinks of right here, right now. He never thinks of what the future might hold. He seems to find it impossible players can get better and improve.

    I like Omar signing Jorge Vazquez. He's solid. Look at his peripheral numbers. I see him doing something in some capacity in 2007. Omar really seems to like Urdaneta. Early last year he had his own 40 man roster spot.
    And gotta love a guy named Chip.

    I hate Melky Cabrera.

    1:52 AM

    Blogger Itsmetsforme said...

    i know this isn't a particularly interesting or original position, but i want to say that i dislike Bore-a$$. Now i'm sure he's a superduper agent and all, but his tactics aren't so mindblowing that he should dominate the headlines: hype, dissemble, delay, sucker. Why can't the GMs collude? The Mets will end up bidding against themselves. Rinse and repeat. Hmm, come to think of it, why does it just so happen that no one but the metsies and the Rangerricks "seem" to be interested in Zitsie, anyhow?

    Fans have convinced themselves that the Mets would be better off with Zitsie, and I've convinced myself too. But sometimes I catch myself wondering if he will reverse his slow decline with the mets, and be "worth" his contract. It's funny that in this market, when a real ace does come on into play, they can't really get what they "deserve" tha is, they can't get all that much more than the 2-3 guys(which I worry that Zitsie might be one of) who seem to be routinely asking for the $10-15 mil range ,cause, well, no one's gonna pay $25 mil for a pitcher. But I ramble.

    In any event, today I saw an "NBA's most overpaid suckabitches" feature somewhere on the internets, and it seems to me that MLB GMs may still be a tad more disciplined than the NBA Gms.

    by the way, did I miss the Dice-K farewell party in here?

    ps. traffic in LA is no different than anywhere else. you just dont go places from 4pm to 8 and you're ok. You east coasters are so cute. Like Omar has to leave NY to get stuck in traffic.

    3:56 AM

    Anonymous DG said...

    Omar eats traffic for breakfast, then spits it out in the shape of a (baseball) diamond.

    I'm optimistic on the Zito front, but I don't think we would die if we don't get him.

    Neyer often goes against Met hype, but he's all right. He's wrong about Oliver Perez, who is a flat out competitor. I think Peterson will have great success with him.

    4:42 AM

    Anonymous Coop said...

    Itsmetsforme - i love ya, but NY traffic can't hold a candle to west coast traffic - be it LA, SF, Seattle even. Issue? There is no mass transit out there or mass transit that is comparable to NYC's. We cango places from 4 - 8 pm and still get home in time to watch first pitch of a baseball game

    Hey did anyone read the article on JD Drew on FoxSports - that he failed his physical or some crap and the deal with the Sox might be null and void? Interesting...

    Zito immediately makes us better. Therefore, we need to sign him.

    Coop has spoken

    6:25 AM

    Anonymous jake said...

    i'm reading olney about a possible fit with loretta and the yanks.

    what about the mets? high on base, works over pitchers, pretty cheap...what's not to like?

    9:04 AM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    Good point Benny. He doesn’t seem to think there is any projection with a 28 year old and a 25 year old who could of won a Cy Young if he was on a better team.

    I don’t have to love a guy name chip. Fuck that.

    I hate Melky too. Since when did he become a hot commodity?

    His tactics are not mind blowing, but he let’s teams stew and get themselves in a tizzy. If you avoid the tizzy, you avoid the crazy bidding wars and dropping a quarter of a billing dollars on a player. If you blink, you are toast. He has not leverage with his lesser players. He represents plenty of average guys and get average deals, it’s only the players who he could leverage that he actually does. If your balls are bigger than his and you take the position that you will not get bent over even at the cost of not being able to improve your team, your chances seem better. If you wreak of desperation, forget it. He’ll wait and wait and wait and wait and someone will draw their gun. And you made the real point here…Boras makes it seem like ten teams are in it when it’s clear there aren’t many. Maybe two and we have no idea how far Hicks is willing to go. He’s not dumb (thought it seems like it sometimes) and knows the deal. Paying $17 mill a year for a flyball pitcher in his park doesn’t do anyone any good.

    RE: the NBA…I was saying that the other day. As crazy as baseball has been, there are soooooo many more bad contracts in the NBA. Guys getting the max that are a tick over mediocre. The talent pool is so thin, teams just continually do things that you know the instant they do them it is going to come back to bite them. This off-season has been reminiscent of those crazy basketball contracts, but basketball has 50%+ bad contracts. Just nuts.

    No Dice-K farewell here.

    LA and your smoggy traffic is worse (Coop laid the smack down). Don’t try and play around like it isn’t. And we’re better looking over here.

    DG, I completely agree. The Mets will be great without Zito and have a formidable staff 1 through 5 when Pedro comes back. Maybe even before he comes back. It really depends what you think of Maine and Perez and most of us like both of them a lot.

    I thought Neyer was a bit hard on Ollie P to say the least.

    I thought they were re-working the Drew deal? They both want this to work and he’ll be there.

    9:18 AM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    Jake..I agree on Loretta for a one year deal to platoon at 2nd and get in elsewhere. I think Omar has really hit his threshold for salary if he lands Zito. Furthermore, I fully expect Green to get cut at some point.

    9:19 AM

    Anonymous your mom said...

    rob neyer can e.a.d.

    11:15 AM

    Blogger Itsmetsforme said...

    what's this word you use, "mass transit"? i have no idea what you're talking about.

    1:29 PM

    Anonymous benny said...

    You guys have trolleys!

    1:34 PM

    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I agree, Rob Neyer is a swell guy and all and I did like reading his column before ESPN made everything worth reading pay per view, but he has an unhealthy dislike for the Mets. The Oliver Perez thing really stands out as a good example of this. He can’t see through his prejudice what is obvious to me. Just take a look at the situation OP was in and his present situation. In Pittsburgh, he was a member of one of the poorest run organizations in baseball. Pittsburgh features a cheap owner, clueless GM, and no real plan of how to build their organization. He was rushed to the bigs, had an awesome season, and became the defacto ace of a staff of kids. OP is obviously a fierce competitor and has filthy stuff. I think in Pittsburgh, where there was no real leadership or source of mentoring, OP tried to do too much and did not stay within himself. The fact that Pittsburgh gave up on him is testament to their futility. Fast forward to the Mets. Ownership willing to spend to get better, a genius GM, and a real plan of attack. There is not a leadership void on this team. Most importantly to me is that OP is now surrounded by two future HOFers (Pedro and Glavine) and another pitcher that may well have been a HOFer if he spent his entire career in the MLB (El Duque). Throw in Zito and the picture just gets better. OP will listen to everything the Jacket tells him and benefit from the greatness around him. Sorry, Rob, but game 7 of the 2006 NLCS will not be his legacy. Here was a kid that was completely lost a few months before the playoffs. After a couple of months with the Mets he pitched effectively in an incredibly high pressure situation. Game 7 will not be his legacy. Game 7 was the tip of the iceberg. OP might well go down as the steal of the decade.

    3:15 PM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    Preach on brother.

    3:34 PM

    Anonymous jake said...

    amen. all i have to say to rob neyer is "not what the fuck am i talking about, what the fuck are you talking about?"

    in addition to the above, lets not forget how they intentionally brainwashed the kid (what is he, 25?) into not thinking of himself as a strikeout pitcher:

    "Whether or not the Pirates are merely tiptoeing around Perez's lost velocity, it is clear management wants to see less Randy Johnson in his repertoire and more Tom Glavine. Even if the heat returns.

    A week ago, Tracy conspicuously omitted Perez from his list of strikeout-type pitchers in his rotation, saying of Perez and fellow left-handers Zach Duke and Paul Maholm, "That's not the kind of pitchers they are."

    Colborn evaluates Perez that way, too.

    "Oliver seems to have a knack for the finesse part of pitching," he said Saturday. "I've seen him pitch only three games, and that's my impression."

    Tracy and Colborn have made impressions on Perez, as well, relentlessly prioritizing going deep into games over strikeout totals.

    "That's what they want from me," Perez said. "I want that, too, for the team.""


    somebody please remind me, how fast was he throwing in the playoffs?

    4:11 PM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    mid 90's and it was glorious. Let's not forget about Major League hitters swinging at balls that almost hit them as the slider dove hard and into the inside.

    And I did like his back door, sneaky curveball. I thought it was a nice change to pace to drop in on people.

    4:43 PM

    Anonymous DG said...

    Fast enough, that's for sure. MiCincy, you have it almost all right and the only thing I'd contradict - for the sake of purely being factual - is that OP was not rushed to the majors by the Pirates. If anyone rushed him, and I'd quibble on that one, it was the Padres. No, OP was ready for the majors. Like the dreaded name we shall not utter (see, SK), he was a fastball pitcher who showed enough to learn the rest in a major league rotation. That is if you are going to let him pitch to his strength which is working off of his fastball and slider. Making this guy a finesse lefty...what were they smoking, ... crack? I agree, OP is going to flourish here. He's the anti-Kazmir (there I said it), a steal of a trade for us. I'd venture to say that Game 7 changed the guy's outlook of not only what he can do in one game but over a career. He's made for NY, made for the big game. He'll have some ugly games here and there, but he's going to learn to be the pitcher he should be in NY.

    4:45 PM

    Anonymous Farva said...

    "Mets execs meet with Suppan"- one question...why do we want Kris Benson back? The guy is going to be an overly expensive Benson caliber player for us.

    Only thing I can think of is that they are trying to show Borass that Zito is not the only cow left in the barn.

    9:05 PM

    Anonymous Mike from Brooklyn said...

    Haven't been keeping up w/Mets news - praying that Omar can work his magic on Planet Zito.
    Do you think it's a problem that OM is taking so long to sign Willie to an extension? Does it send a (bad) message to the players about who's in charge - which could become a problem if they get off to a slow start, etc.
    I know you're not a Willie fan, but seems to me OM should not screw around with this situation too long...

    11:00 PM

    Anonymous Coop said...

    Metsfanincincy - you are my new hero (sorry Benny! LOL) - I have been saying all along that if we think of Oh-Pea as trade bait...we might as well bend over and kiss out collective ass good bye.

    He will not only be the steal of the decade...but he will be a legit CY candidate next year...and will pitch the ever elusive first Met no-hitter. I for one plan on going to every game he pitches next year...not sure if it will be next year, but mark my words he will be the one.

    11:35 PM

    Blogger Itsmetsforme said...

    oh my geez what a discovery i just made. zito spelled backwards is otiz--almost just like that steroid-laced monster DHing for Boston these days!! Stay away Omar, cause you know you don't want anyone doing steroids on our team!! no no no.

    i hoped i was your hero, coop. oh well i forgive you, because this is the one time of the year we gather around the man(a)ger and stare at the baby Oh-pea and think about the true meaning of xmas, right?

    3:15 AM

    Anonymous DG said...

    Personally, I prefer Opie to Oh-pea. I believe that if you look up into the moonlight on Xmas night, you can see Mr. Ollie Perez leaping over the foul line as he pulls Santa's sleigh.

    3:41 AM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    DG, I second that. OP is going to be a steal. The guy is flat out nasty and one of the top five sliders in the bigs…IN THE BIGS! It ranks up there with Kazmir’s nastiness.

    Farva, FUCKING SUPPAN! FUCKING SUPPAN! Is he even appreciably better than one of our youngsters and worth blocking one when they are ready for a ridiculous four year contract? Nope. They are just using him as leverage. Nothing more. No way they sign this bum.

    Do you think it's a problem that OM is taking so long to sign Willie to an extension?

    On the contrary my man. It shows the players that Omar knows how to evaluate talent. Willie is a league average manager who deserves league average money. Omar offered him a fair deal of about a million per year. Willie ain’t worth no $2 million+ per year.

    Coop, OP for Cy Young? I like your spunk. Maybe you should buy a jersey for OP? You would be the only one and you could maybe start a trend.

    Do you think it's a problem that OM is taking so long to sign Willie to an extension?

    I prefer watching guys like him on TV. You cannot possibly see all the goodness in person and he is so nasty that it deserves to be seen in High Def to appreciate how his slider darts around.

    10:57 AM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    Just to reiterate....


    10:57 AM

    Anonymous DG said...

    Suppan is basically a higher level, more successful Trachsell (pre-06 variety). He wouldn't be the worst acquisition, but he pales next to BZ. At same time, if he was to be signed by the Mets, he will have decent trade value. Further, I don't really think he's going to block anyone as we are looking at one of our two 40 year old pitchers being phased out next year. He's the next best FA left and a better buy than some that have already signed. It would be hard to get excited about his signing, but he's not the worst pitcher we could acquire. Plus, I'd rather see the Mets sign Suppan than trade a Humber or a Pelfrey.

    11:39 AM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    Plus, I'd rather see the Mets sign Suppan than trade a Humber or a Pelfrey.


    RE: Two 40 year old pitchers...Glavine has an option and The Duque is signed for next season. It's hard to see the Mets not using them as starters in '08 if they have them under control. That's just the way they do things. They will lean towards certainty in those cases leaving too many pitchers for too little spots. Not the worst problem, but I'd like to start infusing Humber and/or Pelfrey into the rotation sooner rather than later. If a crunch is going to be caused, I'd rather it be by a Zito-type guy than a rich man's Steve Trachsel. Suppan, while not the worst pickup, would be an unessary one since I think the Mets can get a 4.50 ERA from a rookie instead.

    11:47 AM

    Anonymous benny said...

    I hate Suppan so much because he's soo mediocre and getting 4 years out of it, I'd really rather have Omar sign nobody or sign guys like Tony Armas, Bruce Chen, Tomo Ohka, Ramon Ortiz, and Joel Piñeiro.
    It'll only cost 1 year of mediocrity at a much cheaper rate.

    1:47 PM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    It'll only cost 1 year of mediocrity at a much cheaper rate.

    That should be their agent's sales pitch.

    2:45 PM

    Anonymous Santa DG said...

    That could be a national campaign! MEDIOCRITY AT A CHEAPER RATE!

    Here a tasty tidbit I offer for sheer desire to make everyone concerned:

    If the Brew crew has already offered a four year deal to Suppan & Nuts, we may well expect that he'll need a five year deal to sign anywhere. At least, I can imagine his agent telling him that in this morning's conversation.

    Anyway, I hope everyone's out mindlessly propping up the U.S, economy!

    3:03 PM

    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    If the Mets sign Suppan it would be totally reminiscent of the Appier Trachsel signing in '01.

    The Mets did not want to spend the ridiculous money their top target got on the open market in a crazy off-season in Hampton ('01 was the year A-Rod signed) so they went to Plan B and overpayed vastly for 2 middle of the road starters - Appier and Trachsel. Trachsel worked out ok despite rough starts and finishes.

    appier had a high profile post-season the year before after a largely anonomous career that got him a big contract like Suppan will get. After an ok year, Mets traded his bloated contract for Bobby Bo's bloated contract that the Mets will be paying until 2030.

    Suppan just does not seem like much of a fit in NY. He is supposed to be a real right wing conservative evangilist. He did that commercial opposing stem cell research in Missouri during the World Series. Certainly his outspoken political beliefs may rub people the wrong way in the blue states of NY, NJ and CT. Plus I can't see gregarious guys like Delgado, Loduca, Pedro etc. or a jewish guy like Green putting up with a guy trying to make them repent for their sins all day. Beltran has had some run ins with teammates about his piety (Senor perfecto) and he has the god-father (Delgado) protecting him.


    5:00 PM

    Anonymous sidd finch said...

    I don't know if anyone else saw it, but Super Joe McEwing was invited to Red Sawx spring training. Yikes.

    5:19 PM

    Anonymous Coop said...


    Fucking Suppan, as Mike says.

    I didn't say CY winner - a legit candidate. There will be buzz. The winner will be...NYMets Barry Zito. Nah, I'm just messin with ya!

    Off topic - Speaking of messing with ya, I saw the Dick Cheney Holiday Spectacular in the east village last week - the guy who played "George W Bush" said he wanted "world peace" for christmas. The faux Cheney and Rove were all horrified - to which he replied..."Nahhh, I'm just messin with ya? Hey! Do either of you have any booger sugar?"

    I thought you might enjoy that

    7:48 PM

    Anonymous Jaerock Lee said...

    "He (Suppan) is supposed to be a real right wing conservative evangilist."--Sounds like a perfect fit in Shitlanta with the Jesus Freak John Smoltz! Bring back John Rocker and we have da absolute redneck bomb!!!

    7:49 PM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    I’m doing my part DG..today is going to be a slow workday fo’ sho’.

    Adam…shame on your for bringing up that ridiculous Appier contract. I had successfully forgotten about it and now? Well now, one of the worst baseball contracts in history is back.

    It’s a good point though. Very reminiscent. Mid to back rotation starter getting ace money.

    Suppan and NY is not a fit. I would figure it’s posturing by Omar. He knows that he is not appreciably better, and possibly worse than Humber right now. What? A 4.62 ERA for his career of pitching mostly in the NL? Please….


    I wouldn’t rule out a Zito Cy Young. I think he’d excel in the NYC and really drop a great season. I’m talking a possible sub 3.00 ERA with 20 or so wins. If you go deep in games with these Mets, you win games. Simple fact. Offensively they are better this season and they are relentless. Don’t rule that out.

    RE: Booger in my suger…..Not it’s snot.

    Jaerock Lee is my hero.

    8:48 AM

    Anonymous sidd finch said...

    Looks like D-Train is now DUI-Train. He was picked up after stopping his car and urinating in the street.

    10:39 AM

    Blogger Itsmetsforme said...

    i love the religious intolerance on these posts. And i'm not being sarcastic, i really do enjoy it because i myself am religiously intolerant. For xmas I want never to hear the words "Appier" or "Traschell" again.

    speaking of idiots, I just want to say that Deadspin finally got around to the John Rocker story (in a sublime interview you should check out), MONTHS after I did it on my own blog. It's so hard setting trends in sports blogging, but I do what I can.

    I wish I said DUI-Train first, that's funny stuff.

    1:22 PM

    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    calling Oliver Perez a 1 or 2 IS being a homer. it's ludicrous. he has talent, but he's not at that level. closer is out of the question. why? closers have to throw strikes. i love Endy, that was one of the greatest catches ever. as a 4th outfielder, he is outstanding. as a starter, he would be well below average. come on, be serious

    3:18 PM

    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    as for the Zito/Glavine comparison...it is completely unfair. Glavine put up his numbers on a bad team. Zito's team was always good. more importantly, Glavine was coming off 3 straight 20 Win seasons at that point of his career. in other words, he was on his way up and he was one of the very best pitchers in the game at that point. Zito wasn't necessarily on his way down, but he certainly isn't improving. you have to consider the context of the numbers

    3:21 PM

    Anonymous Jaerock Lee said...

    And Mike you are my hero. There will be a place on the flying saucer for you brother when the time comes. Just remember to drink the Kool Aid when I tell you.

    Anonymous, you must be on drugs! Zito has been on a team batting with pencils! The guy wins baseball games on a team with zero hitting and they still make it to the playoffs year after year. Glavine and shitlanta went to the playoffs for 12 years and went to the WS 3(?) times AND he won a WS most valuable.

    No, there is no comparo between Zito and Glavine, Glavine played on a proven winner while Zito made his team a contender.

    6:17 PM

    Anonymous Farva said...

    Looks like Texas are much more interested in Mulder than Zito. This story this morning damages Borats negotiating.


    6:20 PM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    When Jaerock brings some sanity to a discussion, we are all in trouble. I'll be ready to chug when you tell me.

    I'm not even going to respond to you because you obviously didn't read what wrote and you got owned by a guy

    Farva, that is certainly delicious news.

    7:08 PM

    Anonymous Farva said...

    "I'm not even going to respond to you because you obviously didn't read what wrote and you got owned by a guy"-

    You don't agree with who? I think Jaeboy is right. Yeah Glavine won back to back 20 win seasons but he was pitching behind an awesome team year in, year out. Zito hasn't had the opportunity to pitch behind a big bat team. When he does THEN we can compare numbers.

    I personally thin he could win 22+ games if our bats come to the field everyday.

    8:07 PM

    Anonymous Anonymous said...

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    3:11 AM

    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Can we say METS??

    from mlb...

    "They're all good teams, and they're all good locations," Zito told the Chronicle, "but what I'm looking for is an owner who sees eye-to-eye with me in my goal to lead a team to multiple World Series championships. I want to raise the bar. It's great to get to the playoffs, but I think this year we were too satisfied with getting past the first round, myself included. I was so fired up to face [Johan] Santana at Minnesota that, coming back against Detroit, I don't think I had that same fire. So I'm working on some mental stuff. I'm not going to be satisfied with anything else except getting a ring at this point in my career. I'm trying to lead a team like Sandy Koufax did, and I need an owner who shares that desire."


    4:01 AM

    Anonymous DG said...

    That Koufax insertion is really well done. Clear proof that Zito is very intelligent. Coded message to Mr. Wilpon for whom Sandy K is a boyhood buddy.

    11:40 AM

    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    my point with the Zito/Glavine comparison is this...Glavine was not only on his way up, but at age 28 he was one of the very best pitchers in the game. Zito is not only not on an upward trajectory, but he is clearly not one of the very best pitchers out there. look at the stats at age 28. but look season by season, not at the total career numbers as posted here. Glavine had a horrendous start to his career (with an awful team - that's what i meant) and his numbers clearly got better over those 6 years. Zito however, was on a good team from the beginning and didn't have to get pummelled early on like Glavine. that is why their numbers are similar at that point. again, Glavine at age 28 was coming off 3 consecutive 20-win seasons of 20,20 and 22. Zito has won 11,14 and 16 in his last 3 at age 28.

    i'm sure there are over 20 guys we'd all rather have than Zito. that doesn't mean he sucks, it just means he's not worth $100M.


    12:52 PM

    Blogger mr. met said...

    moving this over from last thread...

    Farva...that wasn't for you....and I didn't finish my thought about Jaerock...I was going to expound on how anon got owned by a guy who likes flying saucers and other bizarre things.

    Best regards to you too David. I simply regurgitate the info and I'm glad you enjoy it.

    Will, it's going to happen. It's plain to everyone including Zito.

    Doug...I still think there are lot of comparisons to be made between the two. Glavine at 28 had a 3.97 ERA and a 1.470 WHIP in a year which he made only 25 starts and had his worst season out of his last five years. Now, I'm not saying Glavine didn't have three years more dominant than any of Zito's other years...on paper, he did. However, that was the early 90's in baseball and Zito's done it in a more offensively charged ERA in the AL. When you take all of the outside factors into it, I think they are actually at very similar places when they were 28. Glavine also got better control as his career when on and their overall w/9 rate was/is not that far off each other. Zito could be poised to take a step forward mentally and figure out how to approach batters better. Furthermore, if he lands with the Mets, a guy like Glavine can only help. I think while a lot of people see some downside to Zito being he is on a downward trend, however so slightly. I see a guy that can also take a step forward and actually improve. He's in his prime now and it is not unheard of for lefites to make that leap around 30 into the next stratosphere. He'll never be a Zambrano type with eye popping stuff, but to be Tom Glavine for the next six or seven years? I'll take it. Steady/front end of the rotation pitching is what he has to offer. As far as 20 guys being more desirable than Zito, you might have also said that about Glavine at the same time who was really arguably the third best on his own team as Zito was when Hudson and Mulder were actually pitching good.

    As for pitchers I would want more than Zito...
    Johan Santana, Roy Halladay, Justin Verlander, Roy Oswalt, Brandon Webb, Chris Carpenter, Carlos Zambrano, and Jake Peavy. Exactly eight.

    There others that are young and have more upside like Dan Haren, Jeremy Bonderman, Erik Bedard, Josh Beckett, Dontrelle Willis, and Scott Olson, but did any have comparatively better years? Not really and they are not proven over a longer period. Give me Zito over the next five years. Zito still finished in the top 10 of ERA in the AL, top 8 in wins, 3rd in innings pitched, 3rd in GDP, and still 13th in BAA. For all the talk about his negative downtrends, he still looked pretty good in '06. I'm seeing a guy who can really take a leap forward in '07 in the NL. Very big leap.

    1:37 PM

    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Thanks a lot for this place, where people can leave their ideas and opinions, it's great!With the best regards!

    10:54 PM

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