Good bye Greg Maddux
Greg Maddux called it a career this week. It was a rather low publicity send off when you think of the treatment Roger Clemens got as he retired (all three/four times). He deserves a lot more attention if you ask me considering he was the best pitcher since the expansion era. Yea I said it, expansion era.
I know a lot of people will think of Koufax, Carlton, Martinez, etc. I like to think that Maddux is the best because of what he did with what he had for how long he did it when he did it.
Look at his numbers and try to find someone comparable. You may or may not. I look at his stats and see someone who is 5th on the all times win list during the era of steroids, five man rotations and specialized bullpens. To have done it while topping out at maybe 92 mph is amazing. I will never forget the time he had a 76 pitch complete game against the Cubs in 1997. He only threw 13 balls!
I hate that his career took a back seat because of his low profile personality and how that douche Clemens roided his way into the spot light. Maddux will have the last laugh though when he gets that 100% vote into the hall 5 years from now.
The Mets have traded Scott Schoeneweis to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Conor Robertson. I personally thought Scott got a raw deal here considering he was signed as a lefty specialist but was used in a different role. He in fact faced more right handed batters than lefties while here. He did have some moments of failure against lefties in key moments (Jody Gerut), but his problems were magnified by an injured knee last year, Willie Randolph, and our bullpen injuries woes this year.
Conor Robertson is nothing to be excited about. This move was about clearing salary and clearing the air of the 2008 stench. The Mets ate $1.6m of his salary and I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets Delgado out in a big spot next year.
Scott Proctor was non-tendered by the Dodgers and I hope Omar takes a look at him. He can be effective but made the worst move a reliever can make: he became one of Joe Torre’s guys and practically warmed up every single day of the season.
Daniel Cabrera is also an interesting non-tender. He has electric stuff but his erratic stuff turned off the pitching starved Oriole’s. I didn’t think that was possible. Omar struck gold in that Baltimore cave once, can he do it again?
The Yankees have officially won the AJ Burnett sweepstakes. Uh, congratulations? Burnett has great stuff (his “stuff” got us Al Leiter). Too bad he is 32 years old and is extremely injury prone. By the contract runs he will have at least 5 trips to the DL.
I don’t get it. He’s had three 200 ip seasons and only one was not in a contract year. In his career year of 2008, he had a 4+ ERA.
This seems like another Pavano-ish contract for me (maybe even worse, Pavano isn’t surly). He can pitch but his best friends in the stadium will be the Yankees medical staff.
The smarter money would’ve been Ben Sheets who has shown his great stuff consistently and only sought a short term deal.












155 Comments:
Greg Maddux retiring is making me feel old. All these guys I grew up with are all getting old and retiring and its just crazy to think about. Maddux, Mussina, Mike Piazza with Griffey, Randy Johnson, Smoltz, and Kenny Lofton not far behind.
Meh, Schoenweiss NEVER should have been signed in the first place. Correcting a mistake from 3 years ago.
Lots of non-tenders and some good ones. Ty Wigginton, Proctor, Britton, Daniel Cabrera, Joe Nelson, Jonny Gomes, CHuck James, Jeff Salazar, Chris Burke, Clay Hensley, and my favorite Takashi Saito!
Now I'm not saying or expecting the Mets to sign any of them, I'm just saying these are the interesting names.
Mets have been quiet in regards to interest in Uehara that makes me sad.
I don't see the big deal about A.J. Burnett. The Yankees organization, team mates, and fans, are going to hate the signing by July.
2:16 AM
Two posts in one day; that's Metropolitans 2004-esque. Nice!
Greg Maddux story: Mets Fuji Photo Day in the 90s -- when you could walk around the warning track and take pictures with players -- was against the Braves one year. Maddux's off day; he's warming up. There's a ball by his foot, and being 12, I ask him for it. To which he replies "No" and just keeps throwing. That was the first time I ever told someone to go fuck themselves. Both my dad and Maddux laughed. And I never got the ball. To this day, that bothers me.
As much as he was a douchebag, and he KILLED the Mets for years, I must say I have serious respect the guy's numbers. They're unreal, especially in steroid era. He completely dominated back in the day, and he did it without a 95mph fastball. Guy was a genius on the hill.
Non-tenders who ought to at least get some looks:
1) Saito ... if he's remotely healthy -- that elbow is a mess though.
2) D. Cabrera -- based on pure stuff alone.
3) Wigginton -- always liked him; not sure if he'd take a bench role, but if he did, he's a quality guy.
4) Proctor -- horrendously used by Torre for years. If he's turned into a specialist, I see no downside here. And he didn't do that terrible in NY.
3:00 AM
In another post I will argue that Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher of all time and back ti up with stats. But yes, Maddux is clearly the second best pitcher of all time. Any pitcher throwing before the year of the pitcher, 1968 is excluded. Koufax threw off a mound that was twice as high as the mounds we use today.
Bye Shoey.
Daniel Cabrera is worth at least a minor league deal. Was Marcu Thames non tend???? If he was then there is a good chance Omar snags him too.
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10:06 AM
Oh, and thanks Ossy, good to have posts here!
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10:07 AM
Happy to see Shoenough gone. You may argue that he was not used correctly, but when the Mets signed him, they claimed that he was more than just a loogie. He wasn't, and bullpen deficits made their claim seem even more glaring.
Yeah, coupla non-tender possibilities. A real shame however that we dumped Willie Collazo. I wonder if he's wondering now whether he should have signed with the Fish as well.
Stupid move by the O's to drop Cabrera who will likely benefit by being out of Baltimore (who wouldn't?). Otherwise, you cannot quibble with any of the cuts. With one big exception as I think about it. Wigginton. Almost like the AstrO's are competing with the O's for idiocy.
Burnett for five years is a stupid signing. A great pitcher when healthy, but I would be smacking my head against my gargantuan Mr. Met bobble head if the Mets had just thrown that much at him. Seems like the Pedro signing bears out why AJ is a bad investment. But fuck it's the Yankees, so SCREW THEM!!!
Speaking of Mr. Met, Ossy can you confirm that Mike is alive and well? No posts here have crimped my baseball style. This is the only place worth commenting on and that's a tribute to the house Oliver built.
To which I'll switch references and note that Ollie would be a good person to re-sign at this point. The money is gonna hurt, but there's no one else worth wasting bad money with the good.
If we could just get rid of Castillo so we could sign Hudson beyond re-signing Ollie, I'd call it a near perfect month of December. Maybe even offseason.
But no one is going to Take Castillo. No even his wife!
11:40 AM
Further, I still think as I wrote the other day that we could probably turn Putz around for a blue chip prospect and eighth inning set up man if we turn him around now. I expect the Mets will pick up his option in 2010 and then ship him with money for a prospect. He's worth more now obviously - problem is that is both with the team and as trade bait!
11:43 AM
Maddox was a pitchers pitcher, great control, was a master of his domain, and his stuff was never overpowering.
If Castillo is telling the truth and he will not allow what happened this year again next give him one more chance... we still need to strenghten the 7 & 8 hole in the line up.
12:40 PM
The thing about Castillo that I find curious is that in 2007 when he came to the Mets I didn't see one player who played as hard, with as much heart, showed grit, and cared as much as Luis Castillo. It was amazing. Every game he was busting his ass. After every loss he looked like he was in tears.
And then came 2008, it was weird.
Although I still think he sucks and has got to go, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because I know what I saw in 2007 and that was somebody who did the things that people suck David Eckstein's dick for.
1:24 PM
mike is alive. i talk to him every now and then. he's just got a full plate.
Pedro is right up there with Maddux. Pedro had something that couldve pushed him past Maddux (nasty fast ball & cojones), but I give Maddux the nod though because of his durability. that all star game where he struck out the side twice took alot out of him.
2:54 PM
Maddux is/was always an old school pitcher, one where guile was worth more with stuff, but with more umph to his repertoire than, say, Jamie Moyer.
Very glad to hear Oliver is out there! Hope he looks in from time to time.
7:48 PM
What Omar has done this off season is very interesting to say the least. I think he is trying to duplicate the winning formula that the Phillies used last season which, to my surprise, hasn't been studied closely by the industry.
Unlike the conventional baseball wisdom, the Phillies won with only one ace. The other starting pitchers they had were only serviceable at best. What they had so special was a lights out bullpen and a resilient offense.
Since the cost of starting pitching is much higher than that of the pen, so why not spend $30 million per year to build an elite bullpen and save tons of cash off starting pitching with young and serviceable pitchers with an ace leading them. This way, you not only lower your risk on the most fragile portion of the game: starting pitching, but also save enough money to build a solid offense. The angels were able to contend year after year with K-rod and Shields at the back end of the pen and the Phillies won it all last year with that structure.
That is why I think Omar is reluctant to spend 15 mil more per year on Perez or Lowe. We already have an ace in Santana who makes $23 mil/year. In addition to Pelfrey and Maine, the Mets can add a lot of depth to the rotation by signing a shit load of low risk and high reward pitchers and still keep the starting pitching under $30 mil this year which leaves about $80 mil on position players.
With a potent offense, you don't need starting and relief pitching both to be great. You just need to make one of them powerful and deep. It's much cheaper and less riskier to build an elite pen than a rotation.
MetsChina
2:43 AM
Maddux had excellent movement on his pitches to go along with his impeccable command. BTW Maddux and Glavine refined the art of expanding the strike zone by 1 to 2 feet. Glavine lost that advantage when he signed with the Mets.
I consider myself privileged to have seen Koufax, Martinez and Maddux pitch in their prime. In the short time he was dominant Koufax had the most talent I have seen in a pitcher. He riding fastball would hit triple digits in velocity and his power 12/6 curveball had the sharpest drop I have ever seen. There was an interesting story that Koufax never threw his fastball at a hitter because he was afraid his fastball would seriously hurt the hitter. The one thing to keep in mind about Koufax when comparing his stats to the others is the number of innings and complete games Koufax pitched. Koufax retired because of an arthritic elbow but pitching through the pain in his last year he started 41 games, completed 27, 323 IP, 317 Ks, 77 BBs, was 27-9, had a 1.73 ERA with a WHIP of 0.985.
3:20 AM
Ossy - glad you are taking up Mighty Mike's mantle. I too am lost w/o this blog (maybe I should get another hobby...)
Briefly - always disliked Maddux (TC, nice story/no surprise) and I'm with Mookie - he and Glavine definitely benefited way too much from the generous strike zone; notice his post season # are generally pretty crappy. Yes, he was s a dominant regular season pitcher but who would you rather have in the post season - him or Dave Stewart?
BTW, surprised there's not more chatter about Joe Nelson not getting an offer. He killed the Mets (not necessarily the best indicator). Have to think he'll be on Omar's X-mas list.
Finally, does the Phillies chatter bother you guys? Maybe I am too close to it (my in-laws are all Phillies fans - Merry Christmas!) but Rollins and Hamels and the "J. Reyes"/Victorino stuff does bug me...
8:50 AM
It's funny how Joe Nelson was brought on a couple of years ago as a NRI, I think it was 2006.
Look at Mr. Nelson now, wow.
And the Marlins are incredibly cheap. They non tendered him because they were 200K apart! jeeze!
MetsChina, the Mariners had a style similar to the one you brought up in 2001 when they won all those games. They had Freddy Garcia, Jaime Moyer, Aaron Sele, Paul Abbott, John Halama , and Joel Pineiro making their starts. They had 3 relief aces in the bullpen with Sasaki, Arthur Rhodes, and Jeff Nelson. They didn't win it all but still.
The Angels are also able to compete because the rest of their division has consistantly sucked.
11:12 AM
DG-
I think Putz will be worth more next year. He will be making ~$9M, which is cheap for a top closer. If he has a good season pitching the 8th he will be in high demand, he will have a reasonable salary and commitment, and there probably won't be as many closers available next off season. I think the Mets will have a shut down set up guy for this season who they can turn around for the set up guy and blue chipper next off season.
If Putz stays healthy, this will be a great trade for this season and in the future.
12:40 PM
Yes, but these days one year rentals are worth less than two years jobs. Trust me, I am excited by the prospect of a seven inning game but do wonder if they can fulfill the same needs while also expanding the farm system.
3:10 PM
This comment has been removed by the author.
5:05 PM
All these guys I grew up with are all getting old and retiring and its just crazy to think about. Maddux, Mussina, Mike Piazza with Griffey, Randy Johnson, Smoltz, and Kenny Lofton not far behind.
All these guys I grew up with are all getting old, or dead.... Mantle, Maris, Mays, Spahn, Koufax, Drysdale, Torre, Ford.....
All players can be assholes at times. I still really like him compared with Rogah Clemens, and tha commercial he did with Glavine 'chicks dig the long ball' still cracks me up.
MetsChina makes a great point about how the Phillies got it done last year. The point is that the Moneyball approach is when you see value in the market that is under appreciated, and you can get it for less. That's what the A's did with on-base percentage, and the other things that they pursued that were written about in that book. Now, everyone is looking for those types of players. Youkilis, Pedroia, et. al, are examples of them. The trick is to find value where no one else is looking.
I heard rumors that the yankers were going to re-sign Carl Pavano, and it turns out they did, but he changed his name to A.J. Burnett.
5:19 PM
I heard rumors that the yankers were going to re-sign Carl Pavano, and it turns out they did, but he changed his name to A.J. Burnett.
Zing!
If Omar can get Lowe on the cheap, and patch up the bench spots, I'd be content going into '09 with what we have. Murph/Tatis platoon, Castillo, & Schneider is nothing to scoff at 6-9, but beggars can't be choosers I guess.
Freddy Coupons can have his old nickname back being he just got swindled out of $300mm thanks to Bernie Madoff's $50 billion Ponzi scheme. As a financial advisor, I got one word for ya Fred: DIVERSIFY!
K-Rod is going to make Reyes look like a choir boy. I can't wait until he saves one vs. the Phils and goes ape shit on the mound.
For X-Mas, I bought myself an '86 Hernandez pullover throwback jersey. Comes with coke pocket inside the front of the V-neck.
12:50 AM
TC, I'll continue to scoff at Castillo in a Mets uniform. He will not have a comeback this year. He's done.I'd like to see Orlando Hudson batting second, and I think he'd like it to.
But otherwise, I agree as to the offense. Will say that I have more confidence in Murphy putting up last year's numbers than I do Tatis.
8:16 AM
DG -- don't get me wrong, I hate Castillo as much as anyone. The issue is, no one wants him, and at this point, we can't even get a bad contract in return for him (Byrnes deal was rejected).
I'd like Hudson as well.
I am torn with reports of the Mets trading for Varitek. As a player, he's shot, and he wants an insane amount of money. But as a teammate and as a winner, he's one of the best ... and the team could probably use that to go along with the new faces. Depends on what we get back for Scheider (something comparable to the 2nd round pick we give up for Varitek if he signed?) ... and how much Varitek costs.
10:48 AM
thanks Sidd.
There is no value in the starting pitching market any more since every team is shopping in it. The price has been driven up so high that it's extremely risky to sign the quality guys.
I say just sign some cheap pitchers as insurance and let Neise and Parnell compete for a spot in the rotation. I will save the money to solidify the defense and add another bat.
MetsChina
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