A blog dedicated to the New York Mets with some other baseball thrown in.

Thursday, December 13, 2007

Names Have Been Named

Well, names have been named and fingers have been pointed. Also, I admit I was wrong when I said this report was pointless. It was completely worth the reported $20 million it took to compile as the sheer entertainment value of this thing was off the charts. Maybe I would not feel this way if it had been laden with more prominent Mets than Yankees, but I do not believe in playing the ‘what if’ game. The fact is, the Yankees had a lot of guys named and it is swellicious.

As for the effects of steroids and player performance, can we just stop all this silliness that it has not been proven to enhance anyone’s performance? Hundley never hit more than sixteen homers and tops forty the year he starts taking steroids? Todd seemed to think that was the reason because he took Radomski out to dinner afterwards.

However, the highlight of my day was this quote:

“I’ll continue to use Mac [McNamee] to train me. He’s one of a kind.”
~ Roger Clemens


Of course, ‘Mac’ is the guy that Clemens had inject him with steroids in Toronto and was then hired by the Yankees in 2000 after Clemens had persuaded them to do so.

Brandon Smith, an apprentice trainer with the Yankees, describes Roger Clemens’ day as follows: “He’s one of the first players in every morning, runs, does his program with Andy Pettitte, does the team program workout, goes to the weight room, leaves, plays 18 holes of golf and finally meets (trainer) Brian McNamee at 6 .. . . and a few other players – for another workout. It’s incredible how much energy Roger has.”

That one never gets old. However, his tune has changed today and McNamee has gone from ‘one of a kind’ to a 'troubled man'.

"I have great respect for Senator Mitchell. I think an overall look at this problem in baseball was an excellent idea," Hardin said in a statement. "But I respectfully suggest it is very unfair to include Roger's name in this report. He is left with no meaningful way to combat what he strongly contends are totally false allegations. He has not been charged with anything, he will not be charged with anything and yet he is being tried in the court of public opinion with no recourse. That is totally wrong.

"There has never been one shred of tangible evidence that he ever used these substances and yet he is being slandered today," said Hardin, who called McNamee a "troubled man.”


Let the spin begin!

Paul LoDuca was all over this report like AIDS on a Brazilian transvestite. My friend has told me that he was implicated in getting twenty players steroids with his contact. I have no idea if that is true or not, but I’m going to repeat it as if it is the truth anyway. Also, his portion of the report was one of the more telling ones for me.

Lo Duca was reported to have said: “If you’re battling for a job, and the guy you’re battling with is using steroids, then maybe you say, ‘Hey, to compete, I need to use steroids because he’s using them . . . Don’t get me wrong. I don’t condone it. But its a very tough situation. It’s really all about survival for some guys.”

According to the notes of an internal discussion among Los Angeles Dodgers officials in October 2003 that were referred to above, it was reportedly said of Lo Duca during the meetings:

Steroids aren’t being used anymore on him. Big part of this. Might have some value to trade . . . Florida might have interest.. . . Got off the steroids . . . Took away a lot of hard line drives. . . . Can get comparable value back would consider trading. . . . If you do trade him, will get back on the stuff and try to show you he can have a good year. That’s his makeup. Comes to play. Last year of contract, playing for 05.


First, this really gives some insight as to why it can start like wildfire. There was just so much at stake that some people probably felt compelled to do it. I mean, you had back-up catchers like Todd Pratt and Greg Zaun in this report. However, if the roids mean you get to be a $500,000 to $1,000,000 back-up or a minor league org guy for $30,000, you can understand why they took steroids.

In addition to that, that blurb by the Dodgers’ officials kind of lets us know that the team officials were aware of the steroid usage. There were other portions of the report that alluded to that, but this one is more implicit. That reads a lot like a scouting report and says getting off the roids took away a lot of his hard line drives. There was also a scouts comments about Gagne in 2006 that were pretty damning as well.

But all this could have been avoided if Selig listened to Gary.

In his book, Sheffield attributed the increase in home runs in Major League Baseball after the 1994 strike to widespread steroid use, and he claimed that at the time he asked the Commissioner to investigate the issue, only to be ignored. Selig denied that he ever received such a request from Sheffield.

* * *

  • You took a dump in my mouth.

  • You think Eckstein is sorry he did not take the Mets offer?

  • I am not one for platoons. In fact, I hate them. All they do is try and cover up the fact that you have not one, but two shitty players not good enough to start. However, the Mets should at least give Kevin Mench a look for a one year scenario. I think Church might be a decent player and open some eyes, but Mench is a nice hedge in case Alou goes down as well.

  • $12 million + for Fukudome for four years and $12 million a year for five years for Rowand? This Milledge trade looks worse and worse because he would have been giving some solid production at a bargain price for a while.

  • "Everyone has needs," Randolph said. "You just hope it falls into place where it doesn't tear up your minor-league staff and/or get in the way of the right people to play next year. Would we like to improve and get better? Yes. But I think you have to be smart and not overreact to what's out there because really, when you get down to it, you know what's out there. There's not a whole lot."

    What is interesting about this statement is Willie’s desire to not tear up the minor-league staff. Why should he care who is down there if he refuses to use them?

  • A quick note on the new Royals manager:

    While the Royals' three-year, $36-million investment in Jose Guillen raised these eyebrows, their hiring of Trey Hillman as manager drew full approval.

    Hillman, 44, spent the past five years managing the Nippon Ham Fighters in Japan's Pacific League. From 1990 through 2001, he managed in the Yankees' minor-league system, earning a great deal of admiration along the way.

    The Arlington, Texas native credited three Yankees officials for helping him most. Mark Newman, now the Yankees' senior vice president of baseball operations, gave him the chance to manage when he was just 27. From watching Buck Showalter in spring training, he learned about preparation. And from watching Joe Torre in spring training, he saw "the simplicity and the honesty with the way [Torre] dealt with players."


    That is a looooooong time of managing. One would have to assume he knows what he is doing and that is the type of guy I would like to see the Mets go after. I would tend to bet that he can out-manage Willie Randolph while on quaaludes.

    But of course, how can the Mets sign someone with no name recognition?
  • Labels:

    29 Comments:

    Blogger Itsmetsforme said...

    if Paulie Red Ass was a performance enhancing airline, he'd be a goddamn hub.

    someone should make a list of all Shef's other sage words! Bud Selig quick act on the Shef of the Future's condemnation of the spankees as racists!

    i'm just sitting here trying to decide if the Mets have finally got their cosmic revenge on Roidger Clemens,and i think they did. It was our clubhouse boy that helped stir the drink that dumped in Clemens lap. Roidger was drafted by the Mets, right, then later pussied out of the way in the 86 WS, then stole our 2000 glory--now say bye bye to the Hall of Fame fuckface!!

    10:25 PM

     
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I read or skimmed the whole report this evening, and not sure about the exact numbers, but LoDuca pushing or buying PEDs for about 20 guys sounds just about right. I was shocked at how much he was all over that report. I'd say the "villains" of the report were, in order: Radomski, Segui, LoDuca, and then McCanee. Wow.

    Always been a big Todd Hundley fan, too, so seeing his name really kind of hurt - but shouldn't have been a shock, I guess, in hindsight.

    Clemens, on the other hand? Well, I'm sure this makes me a bad person, but man did I enjoy that...

    Far be it for me to defend the Milledge trade, but you can make the argument that if Milledge will be a productive, cheap corner OF, you can/should say the same thing about Church for the next three years. Doesn't mean I like the deal, but the numbers are very similar. And while you can argue Milledge's upside is higher, you can also argue Church's chance of failure is smaller.

    The most telling thing about the Milledge trade to me? How much blogs like this one have changed baseball. Really. 4 years ago trading a prospect for two legit starters on a contending team would have fans cheering. Now, everyone's reaction is "how can you trade Milledge" because we've all been reading about him for 4 years.

    By the way, meant to say thanks for quoting my state of the mets rant a week or so ago. Of course, the next day Milledge was traded and (though I'm not nearly as much of a Milledge fan as many on this site) I thought I would stay away from computers for a while, for my own sanity.

    -ube

    10:59 PM

     
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Scott

    New York Baseball has a black eye I have been reading..huh? New York baseball is fine it is the fuckers who have been outed today that have black eyes.

    Face it, we all thought in the back of our mind...Clemens is a juicer. Now we know why he threw the bat at big Mike...roid rage!

    BTW No Mike Piazza on that list, no Pedro, Wright, Beltran or anyone of consiquence on the current team. Meanwhile in the Bronx...HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

    'Clemens enjoyed shooting in Pettites ass'

    11:37 PM

     
    Blogger bmc said...

    Wally Backman and Tim Teuffel
    Lenny Dykstra and Mookie Wilson and Danny Heep and Kevin Mitchel
    Ray Knight and Howard Johnson

    The 1986 Mets had friggin platoons every which way.

    You can't make a sound argument to me that you'll get more out of Castillo than Gotay / Easley. The same can be said for Castro / Schneider vs. Paulie Pill Popper.

    The Platoon Phenomena is real. Bill James said so.

    1:19 AM

     
    Blogger bmc said...

    Holy Shitballs! Rafael Santana couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat: .218/.285/.254 over 394 AB.

    1:22 AM

     
    Anonymous benny blanco from da bronx said...

    I mean if people read the report you'd see that Lo Duca used it pretty much to GET to the major leagues and establish himself. There's a section that talks about the Dodgers trading Lo Duca because of him not being on steroids anymore, that's pretty ballsy! So I'm assuming he stopped.
    And I mean its pretty obvious he stopped. He was a career minor leaguer who FINALLY got a shot and made the best of it. Once he got established he stopped. And the reason I say its obvious he stopped is because god, that man is the definition of warning track power.

    I'm dying of laughter over the fact that I was able to guess Glenallen Hill being named! HAHA! I was wrong abotu Jeff Bagwell, and Hundley and Bret Boone were easy guesses so its kinda cheating but that Glenallen Hill one has me cracking up, I love it!

    He is left with no meaningful way to combat what he strongly contends are totally false allegations.

    Bullshit, he's rich and famous he can find a way to reach people and "combat" these false allegations.
    And umm, fuck ROger Clemens was a sleazy asshole. When McNamee was my professor he talked about Clemens all the time, they were really good friends. The Astros were playing a playoff game during one of our classes and he had the MLB GameDay cast up on the projector while he lectured just to see how he did. When the Astros made it to the World Series he ended class early so he can make it to Houston and work with Clemens. So fuck Clemens, he's a piece of shit and a liar, they were really good friends.

    I wouldn't consider Lo Duca a "villian" more like... the go to guy to revive or help your career. In the end though are we really surprised by these names?
    Roger Clemens, Paul Lo Duca, Jose Guillen, Lenny Dykstra, I mean c'mon, these guys catch roid rage all the time but the media and the fans call it "fire"!
    I have the dayoff tomorrow so I'm going to read the report, as much as I can. This is fun and interesting although it doesn't prove much.

    All I can think abotu when I see anything by Willie is, FUCK YOU! SHUT THE FUCK UP!

    2:13 AM

     
    Blogger Itsmetsforme said...

    "McNamee was my professor"

    Benny are you involved in this scandel? perhaps implicating Glenallen Hill?

    say it ain't so.

    3:00 AM

     
    Anonymous DG said...

    Must say that I found all of this pretty funny yesterday since there is absolutely no way that we've even seen the full extent of the 'roid years. It was a surprise to see Petitte mentioned but not Roger. Nor Lo Duca.

    Benny receipts show that Lo Duca went back on the juice when he was traded to the Marlins, which is exactly what the Dodger execs predicted. You could easily argue that the team's knowledge that LD had quit followed by their trading him shows how complicit MLB was in this whole mess.

    Will Roger be excluded from the HOF? Somehow, I think no. You could argue that the scope of how many cheaters there are (both known & unknown) will soften over time the stands toward Roger & Barry B as well.

    All these shame of the game headlines today still get me sideways. Can you imagine what happens when they do a serious study about steroids and football? I mean, how has the media, congress, etc., not gone after the NFL? Something stinks of Denmark frankly.

    Otherwise, I can most definitely confirm that I didn't go shitting in anyone's mouth recently. I don't even want to know the mechanics of that one.

    9:06 AM

     
    Blogger mr. met said...

    itsmetsforme, I guess this might tip the scales a bit being it was 1 to 1. Now it might be 1.5 to 1, but when he gets inducted to the Hall of Fame it won't matter and I think he regains the lead.

    ube, Segui was all over it and let many young boys stay at this house, which should raise an additional eyebrow or two. But the guy also came off as being nice to me. He called Radomski and asked if he could do anything for him after he had gotten nabbed. Radomski said, "I will probably have to say your name in connection to this" (or something) and Segui said no problem and that he didn't care. I guess he had nothing to lose being an afterthought in many people's mind, but still. He wasn't one of those guys who denies the truth.

    church is under control for a two more years I believe and yes, I think he will suprise people. His inability to hit lefties is greatly exagerated as well, but I still think Milledge is a far more valuable commodity. The Nationals really did not like Church and I never got it. I always thought he could be a nice player and was probably the only guy to have him on their fantasy team for two years straight for a period of time. So don't get me wrong, I like Church. But I like Milledge a lot more.

    BTW No Mike Piazza on that list, no Pedro, Wright, Beltran or anyone of consiquence on the current team. Meanwhile in the Bronx...HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

    Hey man, there might be a list #2, right?

    BMC, platoons can be useful. But they are used because you cannot find a capable full time guy. I don't think that is untruthful and there have been good ones, but I would prefer one starter who can do it all and a backup to provide versatility. The fact is, when the other platoon guy is on the bench, he is still one dimensional. The real point is I think Milledge is a 160 game player whereas Mench is not and Church might not be. We'll find out there.

    Benny...thanks for proving Clemens is a dirtbag to an even greater extent than we alrady thought.

    All I can think abotu when I see anything by Willie is, FUCK YOU! SHUT THE FUCK UP!

    Yes! I like the anger. Feed off of it. Channel it.

    DG,

    Otherwise, I can most definitely confirm that I didn't go shitting in anyone's mouth recently. I don't even want to know the mechanics of that one.

    I've never done this, but common sense would seem to dictate the mechanics of that one, no? The man receive the poop lies on his back while the one delivering squats over his face. BAM!

    As for the NFL, it is a bizarre case indeed.

    9:22 AM

     
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Worse case:

    Pettitte gets suspened 15 games. Hank goes crazy and orders Cashman to get Santana and offer up BOTH Hughes AND Kennedy. Twins say, 'Done Deal'.

    I say NOW is the time to get Santana! Do it!! If you have to, fine, bleed to farm system. Mats have 3 of the Top 35 picks in next years draft. Rebuild that way.

    - Nokes

    10:42 AM

     
    Anonymous rick m said...

    Daaay-um, I could have lived without the Chuck Berry explaination...

    I think one of the things that's being lost when you look at the list of players as a whole is the general medocrity. Aside from the few superstars (and remember, they're getting old at this point), most of the guys named were pedestrian players. The bottom line is, none of these performance enhacing drugs are magic bullets. If you use them and bust your ass in the weight room, you can find a little fountain of youth like Clemens. Catchers like Lo Duca and Hundley were probably able to be productive despite the beating their bodies absorbed. But other guys like Gagne shot up, went out for cheeseburgers and just got fat. I'm not saying the drugs didn't help, they obviously do. But the superstars (Bonds, McGwire) are superstars and the role players (Seguei, Carreon) are still just role players.

    10:50 AM

     
    Blogger mr. met said...

    Nokes...I'm sure Omar is on board with you. The man is ready to liquidate, but the Twins are holding out for Ellsbury and Lester. I firmly believe that if they do not get both, then the Mets chances to land Johan skyrocket. We'll see how this one plays out, but the Twins are in no rush.

    But the superstars (Bonds, McGwire) are superstars and the role players (Seguei, Carreon) are still just role players.

    Agreed, but the roids allowed some players to have a hell of a stretch or hell of a year. Some of these guys had incredible runs and it cannot be ignored what it did for Giambi most notably. That guy had one hell of a stretch and some monster seasons.

    There were guys that it definitely did not help, but it hard to ignore some other guys who just had some season(s) so out of line with their past that it is blatant.

    11:05 AM

     
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    catching up with yesterday and today's comments. if i understood your question my humble opinion is:

    if i had a vote i would not vote for bonds or clemens to the hof.

    the steroid era argument doesn't work for me. if every player in the league used them, i wouldn't vote for any of them.

    sorry if i'm repeating myself.

    my bet is at the end of the day they get blackballed by media which reflects the self-righteous and judgemental nature of america.

    normally i oppose the conclusions of that self-righteous, judgemental attitude.

    but in this case why should these guys be honored by the hof?

    i don't think you have to put people in there every year or even every decade.

    as of now though i wouldn't blackball the whole era. pedro still gets in, for example.


    jake

    12:01 PM

     
    Blogger mr. met said...

    Well, i guess the question is this. Are you saying you would not vote for anyone who played during this era or that you would not vote for anyone who got caught.

    You would undoubtedly be letting people in who did steroids and did not get caught, which I believe is wrong. While some people should be impacted, not all will be and rightfully so.

    1:07 PM

     
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    mr. met - anytime we punish "the guilty", we are really only punishing the people we caught. Do we let criminals go because we don't catch all of them? If you have kids, when you catch them lying do you not punish them because you know their friends may have lied and not get caught?

    Life's not fair. People get away with stuff. Either you punish the people you DO catch with this understanding or you let everyone do what they want.

    Jake - I'm right with you on this one. If there's reasonable evidence you took PEDs, I don't want you in the HOF.

    I still say Segui and LoDuca have to go down as big "villains" from the report - not because they took PEDs, but because they were each the link to countless other players. They are pushers and/or dealers. Nice guys? Sure, maybe. But at least partly responsible for the spread of steroids in the game? Without a doubt.

    -ube

    1:48 PM

     
    Anonymous benny blanco from da bronx said...

    All these guys are based off one supplier basically. It's alot of players and its a an easy network to get into. I think Ken Caminiti was right when he said about 50% of the guys were on the juicy juice.
    Pretty intense stuff.

    2:35 PM

     
    Blogger mr. met said...

    ube...That is a bit too easy of an answer for me. Yes, we don't know everyone who is guilty, but can you say 100% is guilty? Who is getting punished and where are they getting punished? Public opinion? This is not a criminal trial and as stated by quite a few people, not many of these testimonies and evidence would stand up all that much in a real trial.

    I'm not really drawing any similarities between a real court preceding and this report. This Mitchell investigation backs up what many of us already thought. Has your opinion changed much from December 12th? Is there empirical evidence that all mentioned are guilty? To what extent are they guilty? Did someone do it once and never do it again? Should they be stricken from the record books and Hall forever because of that? Over how long of a period were these things happening and was their body of work outside of that good enough to get into the Hall? There is a lot of circumstantial evidence and testimonies from people who could easily be dismissed as witnesses given what they have on the line.

    Are they lying? Probably not, but in a real court, there still is not enough to convict anyone….at least in what they are showing us. Only two guys were seen doing them by these guys. Do I think they did? Yeah, but now we are all judges and juries, etc. It is an ugly time for the sport, but let us fix the problem moving forward and just take note of what happened has been transpired. You and Jake believe differently than I do.

    2:38 PM

     
    Blogger Anthony said...

    I think it's fair to say that many people are going to have different opinions. At the end of the day it seems that's what this will all be based upon, people and their own opinions.

    Mike, I get what you're saying on how can you punish some but not all. But I also see ube and Jake's argument.

    My personal opinion skews more along with what ube/Jake are saying. I do believe that many of these guys have been caught thru enough circumstantial evidence (Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, LoDuca). So I would vote to not put them in the HOF. I think you have to try to use some common sense thru it all. I would vote Pedro in. Unless some info comes out on guys like Piazza, I would vote him in as well. Just seems like it would be on a case by case basis and personal opinions. I don't believe there will ever be a right or wrong on this subject.

    2:51 PM

     
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I understand that the difference between evidence for court and heresay. And I've always said there has to be reasonable evidence. Brian Roberts? Nope, not really close. Clemens? Pretty darn close. LoDuca - likely more than enough to convict in a court of law, if the witness's statements were sworn testimonies. And keep in mind - this isn't a court of law, never claimed to be, and doesn't need to be. This is a private business, and has the right to policy itself as it sees fit (with a few social responsbility exemptions, such as discrimination).

    Plus, there is one key point people are missing. One of the big reasons why you need to be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt in a court of law is this - if you are convicted and then foudnd to be innocent, you can never get the time you served back. However, with the HOF it is EXACTLY the opposite. If you have doubts about someone, you can hold off until you know more, and then vote him in. But you can never vote him out.

    There are two points here, and they shouldn't be confused. One is what is a reasonable standard of evidence? That is a valid question, and can be debated from many defensible viewpoints. We differ on that, and that's completely fine.

    The second point, though, is pretty cut and dry in my mind. There is not a single area of any society I know of where we let guilty people go because there are other guilty people we haven't caught. Nowhere. Yet that defense is being heard all over the place - TV, radio, internet, whatever. It's just not a viable defense...

    At least those are my thoughts...

    -ube

    3:00 PM

     
    Blogger mr. met said...

    Well...the point here is circumstantial evidence, no? Can we really just be OK with ending someone's Hall of Fame bid on circumstantial evidence? As Bonds stated, he never failed a drug test that baseball administered. Sure, there is speculation he got a heads up on the testing, but what can we say for certain?

    I just think that today we are at the same point as we were two years ago...except for the fact I now believe Paul LoDuca is a ring leader. This is a messy situation for sure, but I tend to think baseball just needs to learn from this and move forward and not worry about the past.

    I know people say this cheating is illegal while other cheating was not so it should be looked differently. However, what if Greg Maddux was drinking and driving and ran over some kid and went to jail. Does breaking the law necessarily mean you are out of the HOF? Or does the combo of cheating/illegal solidify it?

    I agree that it does not look good for these guys. However, what more do we really know after this report? Todd Pratt might have used? Great. Most of these guys were already suspected and are still suspected because nothing has been proved. Can you say for certain that every guy named is 100% guilty? I certainly cannot.

    I am not saying all this crap should not affect anyone's thinking. But I will not make a blanket stated that everyone suspected for roids or named in this report should be banned from the Hall. Personally, I think Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire did roids. For me, it needs to be handled on a case by case basis.

    3:14 PM

     
    Blogger mr. met said...

    The second point, though, is pretty cut and dry in my mind. There is not a single area of any society I know of where we let guilty people go because there are other guilty people we haven't caught. Nowhere. Yet that defense is being heard all over the place - TV, radio, internet, whatever. It's just not a viable defense...

    Right. But my point is also, who is guilty beyond a shadow of doubt? It does look damning for some people. I completely agree.

    Also, as you stated, this is a private business so they can run things how they like. The entire era has to have this hanging over it and things need to be taken in context when people look back 20 years. I just think baseball would be ill advised to hang a few when they know how widespread the problem is.

    It would be very curious for them to punish a few by erasing their chances at the Hall when they know there is just so many more PEDs around than anyone ever thought when you take into account greenies. Also, if they blocked someone, don't you think they might get worried about someone singing like a songbird? The big issue here is no one but Canseco is really offering anything meaningful up. The rest of the bunch is locked up tight.

    This is why I think it is unfair to punish a few when so many more are guilty in this context only. I am not talking about other things, just baseball.

    This mess was created by baseball iteslf and this time period is stained, which is as far as I think it should go. Correct the problem moving forward and leave the debate of whether Bonds should be in the Hall of Fame or not to our grandkids. It will give them something to argue about.

    3:24 PM

     
    Blogger mr. met said...

    In closing....do not worry about punishing the players who might have done something over the last ten years because the problem is too widespread. Make meaningful steps to clean up the game today and use this to strong arm the union to get them to comply.

    Hopefully they use this report to clean up the game rather than keep a few guys who were Hall of Famers before this mess out of the Hall.

    3:27 PM

     
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Mr. met - thanks for taking the time to answer me in such detail. I appreciate it. We have differences of opinions on this, but I would be the first to admit that your views are well thought out. It's good to have a forum like this to talk about something this important to a sport we all love.

    -ube

    4:39 PM

     
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    well put anthony (as usual). and mike i agree with a lot of your points (as usual) and don't think we're far apart. ube also spot on.

    but to me the overriding point regarding the hall, is that it is a priveledge. no one "deserves" to be elected to the hall or will suffer if they are not. there are a lot of problems in the world that take precedence over someone having their feelings hurt bc they don't get in. even if it's a guy like gary carter, it's nothing to get upset about, bc the guy was a still a superstar baseball player. as for steroid users, we're talking about them bringing bad public opinion upon themselves.

    plus, people are selected by a vote. so this is a handy way to deal with not having proof or evidence that would stand up. all the voters can look at each candidate and make up there own mind.

    all i'm saying is that i wouldn't vote for someone i thought did roids.

    i actually think it would be cool, hypothetically, if they didn't put anyone in from this era. just make it that much more selective and mystical. except pedro.

    jake

    4:43 PM

     
    Anonymous Two-By-Four said...

    The Platoon Phenomena is real. Bill James said so.

    Casey Stengel said the same thing in the 1950’s and parlayed it into all those WS rings, but I guess it don’t count since Bill James didn’t give his blessing.

    4:47 PM

     
    Anonymous Two-By-Four said...

    Unless a player is banned by MLB from entering the HOF and/or his records expunged his on the field exploits should be the only criteria used in determining whether or not he should be voted into the HOF.

    5:40 PM

     
    Blogger mr. met said...

    Holy shit...blogger at my post.

    To recap...

    ube... I enjoy the discussion....please feel free to disagree all the time.

    jake,

    I do think the voters will be influence by all this. Bonds and Clemens will be in, though not at first, and McGwire might be out altogether.

    Don't get me wrong. I agree a platoon is good in the absence of a bona fide player. I have advocated a gotay/easley platoon before. I guess I just have sour grapes on the Milledge deal.

    2x4...that last statement is on the mark for me. However, since everyone is human is will have an impact on their decision, but we'll have to wait and see how big of a decision.

    6:26 PM

     
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Haren traded to the D'Backs.

    Fuck.

    - Nokes

    7:32 PM

     
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    and Valverde out

    8:06 PM

     

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