The Demise of the Yankees?
Could I still call myself a man if I use peppermint shaving cream? I'm not sure I can, but it smells to good not to try.
Speaking of men being men, Joe Torre showed he was a man by not allowing himself to work for the petty sum of $5 million (which still makes him the highest paid manager incidentally). Of course, there is more at play here. The Yankees gave off signs that they did not want him so why would Torre put himself in a position where he was not wanted? However, anyone saying the Yankees 'lowballed' him is nuts. Yes, it is less than he made in guaranteed money, but what is wrong with pay for performance? Aging players get incentive laden contracts so they have to prove their worth, why not managers as well?
He could certainly still feed his family on that salary and take some nice vacations, but that is not the real point. The real point is the Yankees made an offer that they hoped he would not take and he did not take it thereby making it look like the Yankees made a valiant offer. No counteroffer by the Yankees, just an "oh well, let us start looking for new managers". If the Yankees knew he was not going to take the offer, why be childish about it and just throw that out there? Being manager of a baseball team is not a position for life and it is their right to choose not to have him. It is as simple as that and should have been treated thusly, but we are not talking about normal teams with normal ways of going about things.
'Tis the life of anyone who wants to be involved with the most prestigious and virtuous franchise in organized sports. Also, the coverage on this thing has been ridiculous. It is getting covered like it was the death of JFK Jr. or Lady Diana. Really, everyone is acting like the Yankees made some huge mistake when all they really did is got rid of a marginal to bad in game manager and will replace him with someone with the same skill set or possibly even a better skill set. I am fairly certain that Torre's intangibles should be reasonably replicated as long as a coherent individual is awarded the job.
Next year will not be impacted whatsoever on the loss of the greatest human being alive. The outcome of the Yankees season does not hinge on this and things will chug along merrily. Mo will be back if he gets an offer, which he will. Posada will be back if he gets an offer, which he will. A-Rod will be back if he gets paid, which might not happen. But in the end, nothing is going to change in Yankee-land and things will be back to 'normal' shortly. In closing, who gives a fuck about Joe Torre?
Yes, the easy answer would be me because I'm writing about it, but give me a break. It is a looooong off-season and there has been nary a work from the Mets.
"Say Alex never would have left Texas and had the year he just had with the Rangers - 54 homers and 156 RBIs and Gold Glove-caliber defense - and then as was his right, opted out. Do you think the Yankees would be interested in signing him as a free agent at whatever cost? And do you think the Yankees would give him a deadline?"
Great point. The Yankees are trying to stand toe to toe with him for no reason at all. They are just penny pinching but when phrased like Boras did above, it makes sense to me. Why should it matter? If the Yankees want him, they will still have a chance like everyone else. Besides, are they truly caught off guard here? Are they really fooling themselves into thinking A-Rod should have some loyalty to them? His first few years as a Yankee were extremely bumpy and now it should be water under the bridge? After getting ridiculed after the monster seasons he put up, they should be lucky he is even considering staying. But in the end, it is Scott Boras. The man loves opting out of contracts and thrives off free agency.
The only way Sabean can pry top young hitters loose from other clubs is by dangling one of his top two young pitchers, Cain or Tim Lincecum, but he’s not willing to do that and other teams won’t give up much for Noah Lowry, who’s a No. 3 or 4 starter on a good staff.
The Giants truly have two options here.
1) Suck for a while.
2) Trade from a position of strength to try and bolster your team in weak areas.
Pitching gets back major premiums. Young pitching gets someone's first and second born.
Labels: The Great Joe Torre, yankees
posted by michael o. at 12:19 PM
19 Comments:
I get what you are saying about Joe, but I think it's less about the money than about the clause that only kicks in if the Y*nkees make the series.
"Making the World Series every year is our goal. Anything less than that is unacceptable."
Ridonculous.
1:56 PM
Mr. Met - I guess I have a different take on Torre. First off, as a Yankee-hater, I'm glad he's gone. Love the stories about the end of the Yankee-era. Whether it's right or not, we don't have to hear about "the Yankee way" over and over again. Will they be better without him? Don't know, but I have my serious doubts. I think you might start to see some of the old Bronx zoo coming back.
And, best of all, the Yankees look like buffoons on this. You're right - I don't think you can call $5M "lowballing". BUT - it was clearly an offer designed for him to reject. 1 year, with a 40% paycut. No managers operate with only 1 year left on their contract, so it's clearly a slap in the face.
Yanks should have (at least) offered 2 years @ 3.5 mil (just more than Pinella's salary) with significant incentives and vesting years. Would have cost more money, but at least he wouldn't be a lame duck. He still would have turned it down, they could have said "we offered him a multi year deal at the highest salary for a manager in the game."
But I love to see the Yanks screwing up and taking a beating. Wonder what the fatman and angry puppy will have to say about it. Might have to listen to them for a change...
-ube
2:03 PM
John Delcos had a nice question today up at his blog:
OK, you’re the Mets’ general manager for the day. You can make only ONE move. What is it?
Dun Dun dun, that's a good one.
The Yankees look real bad after thier handeling of the joe Torre situation. THe Yankees are so full of class. Everywhere you turn its class, soo classy, class everywhere!
I'm convinced that Bobby Valentine managing ANY team except maybe the Reds. He's just crazy...
Scott Boras is the fucking man, wow. All he does is make me nod my head in how amazing and masterful he is.
You can't trade Cain or Lincecum, you just can't. The Giants suck right now so what difference does it make if they "suck" for the next season or two? Atleast now they can develop talent!
2:35 PM
Agreed Sidd....they knew he wouldn't accept it making the entire thing immature.
ube, after writing it, I noticed that the lame duck part was out and probably a huge factor. Good call pointing that one out.
Don't listen to them. Please!
Benny...great question. So great I'm going to hike it as a post!!!! Then we can discuss in the scholarly manner that we discuss all topics.
You got that right. They are the classiest classes who have ever classed. I love it! People can fool themselves all they want, they are not as professional and above everyone as Yankee fans like to believe.
Can't your trade one of them? Just like the Astros should trade Oswalt, they need to roll the dice. Let me paint this picture...they can get a bat (Lastings), a reliever, and a starter back with upside like Phil or Pelfrey. They are 100% better. Sorry, it is the right thing to do but blame their horrific draft strategies and giving away draft picks. But the need to claw their way out and there is only one way to do it.
3:12 PM
Benny...great question. So great I'm going to hike it as a post!!!! Then we can discuss in the scholarly manner that we discuss all topics.
You mean a discussion that includes the words "fuck, shit, fuckin' shit" and other adverbs with the word "fuck"?!?!
Sounds good to me, maybe me and DG can talk some more French politics on the topic of just one move?
Good thing your doing it tomorrow because I need time to think about this.
True about Oswalt BUT Oswalt had been the ages 27/28 when he was talked about being traded while Cain and Lincecum are 22 and 23 respectfully. If Cain doesn't improve the next season then maybe I would consider a trade but then again, next season there are alot of sexy names to sign for pitching BUT at the same time I guess Cain can be traded to the team that loses the Johan/Peavy/Penny sweepstakes. I dunno...
3:18 PM
Oh, it will not be tomorrow. Probably Monday so you have some homework for the weekend.
Pitching is great! But you need to have the offense to give them the runs....Matt Cain could tell you a lot about that one. And you also need a bullpen to close the games out after they are gone. Holding onto all your chips does not end up well. Besides, young pitchers have some risk so they can shed some of the risk as well.
3:42 PM
You know, it's funny - I think the 'Stros absolutely should trade Oswalt, but I don't get why people think the Giants are in so much trouble.
Their rotation is Zito, Cain, Lincecum, Lowry and ??? for less than $25M/yr (tops). Zito is horribly overpaid, but that rotation is very good and really, really inexpensive. Throw in Walker, Wilson, Hennesey, Correia, Chulk, and Sanchez in the bullpen, too. So that leaves them, what, $50M for a closer and lineup?? Are you telling me that they couldn't field a team that can score 4.5 runs a game for $50M?
I mean, really, a competent GM (and that may be the missing ingredient) could put a good lineup together easily. What they need to do is stop being sentimental with guys like Omar Vizquel and Pedro Feliz. Sign a big FA (ARod?), trade a bullpen arm or 2 for a couple undervalued younger players (Jason Bay, Ryan Freel, Bill Hall, Kelly Shoppach, Ruben Gotay, etc.) and then fill in the gaps with bargain basement signings. Depending on how that team works out, it's gotta at least be competitive, right??
-ube
5:18 PM
Problem is finding much decent. Also, that is a good affordable and young rotation that they can turn into good affordable young pitching and good young affordable hitting. They trade down a bit on the arm, but hey, I think the sum or the parts might be better, no?
5:50 PM
the giants dont need to trade young good pitching. they should appreciate it after spending that much $ on zito.
they need to just relax and try to sign everyone who has an arm to a minor league deal. the best way to build a pen is by amassing a stock pile.
look what happened last time they traded pitching for offense. boof, liriano and joe nathan.
6:09 PM
The Mets proved in ’69 that great young pitching when coupled with mediocre offensive players can win it all. You have to be lucky and have a couple of players with career seasons and make a minor trade or two as the Mets made for Don Clendenon. The kid pitchers have to be able to give you more than 5 or 6 innings each game.
I don’t want to be GM for the day I want to be the owner for a day. I would sell the ballclub and take the money and run.
Torre said at his press conference that it wasn’t about the money since with his decision he will earn less than the contact amount. It was obvious from the Yankees actions that they didn’t want him there. He would have preferred they outright fire him. The Yankees did this in an attempt to save face with many of their fans. BTW if they run their baseball end by committee they will probably not make the post season. The Yankees were lucky that Torre did not take the job and in an all out effort to make it to the WS ride his young pitchers the way Tommy Lasorda did with Orel Hershiser in 1988. It gave the Dodgers a WS title but took an immenseness physical toll on Hershiser.
I think every team, person, business and government should set its goal to be the best it can be. If you initially aim to finish in 3rd place you will probably finish dead last. If you aim for a “C” in a course you will probably fail and if set your career goals to be mediocre you will probably fail. It may be physically unrealizable to win it all but you should at least try and work to that goal.
7:31 PM
Just had to tell you that I really miss you guys. Can't wait for hot stove.
If I'm Omar and I make one move, i trade Carlos Delgado for a pair of Manolo Blahniks. Oh by the way, those Manolos are for me, The Coop. I'm a size 7 1/2. Get working Omar.
1:13 AM
From Metsblog:
Baseball America recently completed its yearly Top 20 Prospect List for every league and level of Minor League Baseball.
The Mets placed seven players in the top 20 lists of five leagues, though they failed to boast a top 20 prospect in the short season Appalachian League or the Low-A South Atlantic League. Their top ranked player in any league was Fernando Martinez, who came in third in Double A Eastern League Rankings.
Here is a list of how the Mets’ prospects placed (You must be a subscriber to read the individual scouting reports, so accompanying the rankings are my brief player capsules.)
Gulf Coast League (Rookie):
14. Scott Moviel, RHP - Drafted in the second round out of high school this past June, Moviel went 0-2 with a 3.38 ERA for the GCL Mets, tossing 40 innings and allowing 45 hits, but walking only 11 and striking out 37. He’s a power pitcher with a strong feel for his breaking stuff.
New York Penn League (Short Season A):
16. Nick Carr, RHP - A draft and follow from the ‘05 draft, Carr was 5-2 with a 3.80 ERA for Brooklyn. He tossed 66 innings, only allowing 55 hits, and while he tended to lose command at times, walking 27, he struck out an impressive 74 NYP league hitters.
20. Brant Rustich, RHP - A second rounder out of UCLA this past June, Rustich is a big (6′6, 225) reliever with big stuff. He began his short debut season with Kingsport of the Appy League, appearing in five games while posting a 0.87 ERA. In 10.1 innings he allowed six hits and a walk, striking out ten. After moving up to Brooklyn, he tossed 12.1 frames in ten games, allowing ten hits and two walks, while striking out 11.
Florida State League (Single A)
8. Deolis Guerra, RHP - Another big right hander, Guerra pitched the entire season as an 18-year old in the High A FSL. While pitching limited innings and suffering some ups and downs, his stuff improved, especially his fastball, and ended with a 2-6 record and a 4.01 ERA, allowing just 80 hits in 90 innings, walking 25 and striking out 66.
Eastern League (Double A)
3. Fernando Martinez, OF - Making the giant leap to Double A Binghamton as an 18-year old, Martinez missed time with a hand injury but held his own when healthy, hitting .271 in 236 at bats. Martinez compiled 11 doubles, 4 homeruns and 21 RBI in a weak Binghamton lineup that was often missing its few big bats. He walked 20 times, while striking out 51.
Pacific Coast League (Triple A)
7. Carlos Gomez, OF - Splitting time between AAA, the Majors and the DL, Gomez impressed when healthy, especially in New Orleans. He hit .286 with 8 doubles, two triples and two homers in 140 PCL at bats, walking 15 times and fanning 23. He showed his plus plus speed by stealing 17 bases while being caught four times. He showed flashes in his stint with the Mets, hitting .250 with two homers and nine bags swiped in 108 ABs, before struggling after returning from a hand injury.
12. Mike Pelfrey, RHP - Another up and down campaign for Pelfrey, both in location and performance. He started the season in New York, struggled and was sent down, continuing his troubles in New Orleans. But he began to regain fastball control in Triple A, and his next two stints in New York were stronger, especially his final go round at Shea. He made 14 PCL starts, going 3-6 while surrendering 74 hits in 74 innings. He had a 4.01 ERA, walking 26 and striking out 56. In the Majors, he was 3-8 (having started 0-7) with a 5.57 ERA in 15 games, 13 of which were starts. He allowed 85 hits in 72.2 innings, walking 39 and K’ing 45.
2:14 AM
Posting what I wrote on the other comment thread here as I think the new one was going up as I was posting it:
Wouldn't mind if Torre's de facto firing brought Jorge Posada into the Mets' catching situation.
Not one comment on my thought that the way it was done was like an old time Mets move?
In any case, Torre is like 89 years old; he should take a vacation, spend some money.
...
Answer: Josh Beckett
Question: What is a big game pitcher?
...
I don't know what shit Emmanuel Garcia is taking down there in Hawaii, but I want some!:
Emmanuel Garcia went 4-for-4 with a triple and a double Wednesday for Waikiki of the HWL.
Garcia is hitting .391 with a 1/5 K/BB ratio in 46 at-bats in Hawaii. He hit .256/.339/.301 with a 103/63 K/BB ratio in 488 at-bats at Single-A St. Lucie this year. It was definitely a disappointing performance from him, but in his defense, he probably should have spend the year in the Sally League. The 21-year-old has a fair amount of offensive potential for a middle infielder. He's likely to end up at second base, rather than shortstop, because of his arm, but it's not like shortstop is a need in New York anyway.
5:05 AM
Besides the continued and varied post-mortems for the M. Donald Grant-like firing of Joe Torre, I was quite saddened this morning to read of the passing of El Duque while undergoing what was reported as foot surgery. Turns out the 69 year old, El Duque, did not have a bunion at all but a Soviet-era positional probe that had been implanted in his foot during his years as a star pitcher in Cuba (I believe that was during the '50's). The probe had been devised to track the Duke's whereabouts but had apparently malfunctioned when he slipped out of Cuban hands in 1936. Instead the radio activated dose of poison that should have killed him when he defected was released as doctors valiantly tried to sever the probe from the 98 year old man's foot. When asked about the loss, Wille Randolph professed confidence that the dead veteran of 254 major league campaigns would be ready for Spring Training.
5:36 AM
I put on my rose colored glasses and see that the Yankees want someone with Yankee pedigree and manigerial experience to replace Joe Torre. They ask to interview Willie and end up "stealing" him from the Mets. This frees the Mets to bring in a manager with a little fire and the ability to make in-game tactical moves with his bench and bullpen as well as view youth and energy as a positive not a weakness (Bobby V.?). And we all live happily ever after.
9:13 PM
Then the glasses fall to the floor and you realize that even the Yankees wouldn't hire him...
Man, every time I go to Newsday's Mets page and see that headline about El Duque getting his bunion removed, I pause and consider how sports reporting has "advanced." A shame no one publicized Joe Torre getting his hemoroids removed. What a headline that would have made!
I'm sick of reading about A-Rod and it's only beginning! Could the Rocks knock the Sox so at least we can have something interesting on the Mets hotstove?
6:44 AM
Josh Beckett makes me feel kinda funny. like when we used to climb the rope in gym class.
8:58 PM
Say no to affeldt!
Check out his home BABIP
Its .203!!!
He will never reproduce this year without another god-stroke of luck.
he's just not a very good pitcher. We have enough of those
-Dep
5:52 PM
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6:32 AM
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